LOTR Questions

[Fewin Greenleaf]

I don't know if some of these topics have already been discussed in the other threads. But i want to start a thread that would discuss about any question in relation to the LOTR books. I have gathered a few ones here:

1. Were there other Rangers mentioned in the books?
2. Was Arwen married to Aragorn? Did they have a son?
3. What kind of being was Sauron?
4. After the journey, did Legolas and Gimli travel back to Moria and Forest Fangorn?
5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?
6. What is meant by this: "The time of the elves is over."? It sounded as if the elves had no choice but to leave Middle Earth.
7. What would happen if the elves never left Middle Earth?
8. Why did Frodo leave for the Grey Havens?
9. Have the entmaidens been found?
10. Which of the following creatures is the biggest/tallest in Middle Earth: troll, ent, or oliphaunt?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

1. Were there other Rangers mentioned in the books?

Besides who. There was Aragorn and Halbarad and those of the Grey Company.

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

2. Was Arwen married to Aragorn? Did they have a son?

They had a son called Eldarion and many daughters.

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

3. What kind of being was Sauron?

He was a Maia like Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

4. After the journey, did Legolas and Gimli travel back to Moria and Forest Fangorn?

They travel to Fangorn and the Glittering Caves just as they agreed.

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?

No. Elladan and Elrohir stayed in Rivendell with other elves and Celeborn stayed for a while.

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

8. Why did Frodo leave for the Grey Havens?

He felt drained and tired of ME as if it had been saved but not for him.

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

9. Have the enmaidens been found?

They are in the Shire. Sam mentions them in FotR in the Green Dragon, saying his cousin Halfast saw a tree walking.

[Fewin Greenleaf]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Besides who. There was Aragorn and Halbarad and those of the Grey Company.

I meant, besides Aragorn. These Rangers were descendants of kings, right? What was the reason why they have instead chosen exile?

[Fewin Greenleaf]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

They had a son called Eldarion and many daughters.

So Arwen really became a mortal? Did she die?

[Fewin Greenleaf]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

No. Elladan and Elrohir stayed in Rivendell with other elves and Celeborn stayed for a while.

The movie gave me the perception that only the elves in Rivendell and Lothlorien sailed to the Undying Lands. What about their kins who lived in other parts of Middle Earth, like those in Mirkwook, did they sail there too?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

I don't know if some of these topics have already been discussed in the other threads. But i want to start a thread that would discuss about any question in relation to the LOTR books. I have gathered a few ones here:

1. Were there other Rangers mentioned in the books?
2. Was Arwen married to Aragorn? Did they have a son?
3. What kind of being was Sauron?
4. After the journey, did Legolas and Gimli travel back to Moria and Forest Fangorn?
5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?
6. What is meant by this: "The time of the elves is over."? It sounded as if the elves had no choice but to leave Middle Earth.
7. What would happen if the elves never left Middle Earth?
8. Why did Frodo leave for the Grey Havens?
9. Have the entmaidens been found?
10. Which of the following creatures is the biggest/tallest in Middle Earth: troll, ent, or oliphaunt?

Fewin - if we gave you all the answers to all those questions, you wouldn't understand the answers and they would make you want to ask more questions. In other words... the answers to them are not really simple.

Your best bet is to do a little more reading. Since you have LOTR, your best bet is to read the appendices. Most people read the books and see all that extra stuff and can't imagine WHY they should read it... but it's just PACKED with all kinds of extra information. At least four or five of your questions are answered there... and there's lots of other great information you'll like too.

Appendix A glosses over ancient history (see next paragraph), but then gives more detailed histories of Arnor and Gondor in the Third Age, about Aragorn and Arwen, about Rohan and about Dwarves. Appendix B gives timelines from the Second and Third Ages - but also gives key events of the Fourth Age - so you can see what happens to some of the characters and when. Beyond that, it's a matter of interest - C has Hobbit family trees, D is about Calendars, etc.

If you want to get into the more ancient histories - which focus mostly on the Elves - you'll definitely want to read 'The Silmarillion'. It's a collection of stories which JRRT was working on for most of his adult life. Great stuff! And - it will answer more of your questions.

For at least one of your questions, #10 - I don't think you'll find an answer in Tolkien's work... he leaves some things to the imagination.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

They are in the Shire. Sam mentions them in FotR in the Green Dragon, saying his cousin Halfast saw a tree walking.

Not necessarily conclusive. From just reading the story itself, you'd think so - but when Tolkien first wrote this, he hadn't fully conceived of the Ents - and I think he decided to keep it in for any of a number of reasons. However, he tells us in other places that the Entwives probably are no more... and that the place they moved to was burned by Sauron late in the Second Age to slow the advancing armies of the Last Alliance... the place was called 'The Brown Lands' at the time of LOTR.

EDIT: So maybe what Halfast saw WAS an elm tree!

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Not necessarily conclusive. From just reading the story itself, you'd think so - but when Tolkien first wrote this, he hadn't fully conceived of the Ents - and I think he decided to keep it in for any of a number of reasons. However, he tells us in other places that the Entwives probably are no more... and that the place they moved to was burned by Sauron late in the Second Age to slow the advancing armies of the Last Alliance... the place was called 'The Brown Lands' at the time of LOTR.

I agree with Val about Entwives, and his fine suggestion on the readings. I also recommend the Silmarillion, when you have a lot of time and patience. (It's an absolutely wonderful book, but it's difficult to read at times. It is extremely interesting though, so go for it!)

about your last question:
10. Which of the following creatures is the biggest/tallest in Middle Earth: troll, ent, or oliphaunt?

I'd say Oliphaunt, Ent, Troll. Ents I think would be larger than Trolls because Trolls were a mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves (though their actual making is debated - we won't go there.)

Do you agree guys (as in all thread participants)? Am I getting my Ent-Troll lore straight there?

More about Trolls, I believe Sauron corrupted the evil yet stupid mountain Trolls and gave them intelligence, and maybe a desire to be less reclusive.

As a side note, the only time I can recall giants being mentioned in the Hobbit (unless the same thing happens in LOTR) is at Caradrhas, when a storm, and giants hurling rocks, forced them to take shelter on the goblin's doorstep. Are giants residence of the Misty Mountains different to Trolls, or was he refering to Trolls here?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

As a side note, the only time I can recall giants being mentioned in the Hobbit (unless the same thing happens in LOTR) is at Caradrhas, when a storm, and giants hurling rocks, forced them to take shelter on the goblin's doorstep. Are giants residence of the Misty Mountains different to Trolls, or was he refering to Trolls here?

Funny you should ask... we've just been having a discussion about giants in a thread about fortresses over in the ME forum:

Giant Discussion

As for the size order of those various beasts - it's just a matter of speculation on our parts. I MIGHT think of the Ents (at least the taller ones - they varied greatly according to tree species) as taller than Oliphaunts though - but of course the O's would vastly outweigh them. You're right about Trolls being a corruption or mockery of Ents.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?

I also agree with Valandil's recommendations, though I would read Unfinished Tales before the Sil. To answer this question, many of the Elves stayed in Middle-Earth, and never went to the Undying Lands. They dwindled, as Galadriel feared, to become no more than spirits, haunters of streams and dells where they once lived. Morgoth's Ring, HoME X, gives reasons why they might be dangerous to mortals, in the invaluable essay "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar."
Hmm, find that I have to agree with Val that more reading is necessary, to understand the explanation.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

EDIT: So maybe what Halfast saw WAS an elm tree!

But Sam also said that there were no elms where Halfast saw the walking elm. Also Tolkien did alot of editing so it is possible he put that in after Merry and Pippin heard Treebeards song.

[Attalus]

In the Letters, he says that the Entwives are all dead. I can get a citation for you, if you like. Also, Hal said he saw a tree-man.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But if it was the first time he had seen one then he wouldn't have known the difference. I would be interested to see the citation.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Fewin Greenleaf

The movie gave me the perception that only the elves in Rivendell and Lothlorien sailed to the Undying Lands. What about their kins who lived in other parts of Middle Earth, like those in Mirkwook, did they sail there too?

If I understand it right, elves of the Avari, who were unwilling to travel to the Undying Lands when first summoned by the Valar in the First Age, stayed in Middle Earth and eventually faded, their bodies being consumed by their spirit. There's also the Sindar, those who started out on the journey to the West but didn't make it, some of whom lived amongst the Mirkwood elves and in Lorien, who could sail west if they wanted to. Hence Legolas' "peril" should he awaken the "sea-longing".

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If you read Appendix A then you will see it says that Ellandan, Elrohir and Celeborn among other high elves stayed in Rivendell.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

If you read Appendix A then you will see it says that Ellandan, Elrohir and Celeborn among other high elves stayed in Rivendell.

They didn't stay there forever, necessarily. We don't really know what happened to them.. they might've sailed to Valinor (Which I believe they did), and they might've stayed in ME.

[Haradrim]

Just a side note isnt it entwives???
However I was rpettey sure that they were all killed and who said their couldnt be Ents in the shire I mean Old Man Willow was around there or at least realtively close for an Ent so maybe they had a couple Ents down their as well.

Oh and here is a question: Oliphant vs. Troll vs. Ent who wins. I go with Oliphant because it runs over the other two.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Oh and here is a question: Oliphant vs. Troll vs. Ent who wins. I go with Oliphant because it runs over the other two.

Troll isn't obviously, Treebeard says Ents are stronger.

I think an Ent will win... As an Oliphant is an animal, not sure if it's a ctually evil, or just used for evil purposes bu the Haradrim. Plus, I don't think they're bigger than Ents if the Ents are as big as large trees. So then they'll probably be weaker too.

[Haradrim]

Hey Hey Hey! Whats with the evil side note that was unnecessary... just kidding. And yes troll probably wouldnt win. But even if an ent was as tall as an oliphant its not as fast cuz Oliphants were fast. An Oliphant is huge and gigantic. And if we were to say give the Oliphant a driver then I think its no question that the Oliphant wins. what do others think?

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But if it was the first time he had seen one then he wouldn't have known the difference. I would be interested to see the citation.

Okay, here it is: from famous #144

I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their lands against the advance of the allies down the Anduin. (vol. II, p. 79 refers to it.) They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits).

You should read the whole Letter.