Glorfindel's Prophecy

[Haradrim]

Was the witch king prophecy open to all women and non men or was it exclusive to Merry and Eowyn. Meaning was the prophecy No man can kill the witch-king or no man will kill the witch king. I thinkit is the second because prophecies are usually exclusive to one set oif circumstances. But thats just my opinion

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

We've got this already in the other thread so we'd just be repeatig ourselves.
Edit it to make it about the WK's prophercy.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

We've got this already in the other thread so we'd just be repeatig ourselves.
Edit it to make it about the WK's prophercy.

Not by Haradrim can this be done! (only one of US can do it! )

I made the title change.

I don't think that Glorfindel was saying that it was impossible for a man to kill the Witch-King. I think he had a glimpse or flash of insight to the WK's doom - and was speaking about what he knew was going to happen. Or possibly, he was 'given' the words by Eru or the Valar... and didn't even understand himself how they would be fulfilled.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have suspected that many of the more specific parts of prophey were simply added by lateer authors after the event, to embelish the tale.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

I have suspected that many of the more specific parts of prophey were simply added by lateer authors after the event, to embelish the tale.

Ah - a sceptic, eh? Don't think Glorfindel actually spoke those words before they were fulfilled?

It IS interesting that the WK repeats the prophecy to Eowyn... either he had very good hearing, while in flight (and took Glorfindel's words to heart) - or his spies discovered the words (assuming they WERE actually spoken ), and reported them back to him. Unless... it was someone ELSE who made the prophecy (help me out here Olmer! )... someone on the DARK side!

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't think that Glorfindel was saying that it was impossible for a man to kill the Witch-King. I think he had a glimpse or flash of insight to the WK's doom - and was speaking about what he knew was going to happen. Or possibly, he was 'given' the words by Eru or the Valar... and didn't even understand himself how they would be fulfilled.

I agree with this. The word that JRRT used to describe this was "foresighted," which to me implies seeing the event, like in Galadriel's Mirror. I think Glorfindel saw a glimpse of the W-K's death at Éowyn's hand, and was just reporting. As for the W-K, his spies would have soon reported that to him, as I am certain it was the hottest gossip in Minas Tirith for a month of Sundays.

[brownjenkins]

elves always seemed to have the power to glimpse into the music of the ainur... maybe a side-effect from their time in valinor... and glorfindel made two trips... in some ways, i've always wondered why he was sent back... maybe his 'prophecy' was part of the role eru meant him to play

would the witch-king have been so careless about watching his back if not for glorfindel's words?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe he took the words to seriously and thought that no man could wound him.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Maybe he took the words to seriously and thought that no man could wound him.

Not the first time an arrogant creep like the W-K to think he had drawn a king when all it had been was a jack. I'm sure, getting the story through spies, he got it wrong. That would be fitting. "Often evil will, will evil mar!"

[Earniel]

I very much like the idea that Glorfindel may have 'glimpsed' the demise of the Witch-King by Eówyn's hand. I hadn't thought about that this way before. (Of course that would imply that every thing that happened in LoTR was pre-ordained and had to happen but that's another discussion entirely.) It could explain why Glorfindel himself made little or no effort to destroy the Witch-King after wards, he knew the Witch-King of Angmar had it coming sooner or later.

The Witch-King must have heard of Glorfindel's words but probably never understood their meaning completely until it was too late. Kind of ironic, here he was thinking himself completely safe, protected as it were by the words of a powerful Elf-lord and then some lass comes along who probably never heard or knew about the prophecy and she turns the words (and tables) on him already in the very first minute of battle!

What I wonder about is what hot-headed King Eärnur must have thought if he ever found out that a woman, not even from the line of Isildur, destroyed his arch-enemy.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

(Of course that would imply that every thing that happened in LoTR was pre-ordained and had to happen but that's another discussion entirely.)

Oh - what? Just that little discussion about "pre-knowledge versus pre-ordination"... why heck, that's been kicked about for centuries now!

[Haradrim]

Hey I was able to change the title. And I always believed that prophecies wouldnt come tru unless yu prophesized about them. Meaning the Witch-King wouldnt have been so recless had the prophecy never been made. So prophecies fulfill themselves.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Hey I was able to change the title. And I always believed that prophecies wouldnt come true unless you prophecised about them. Meaning the Witch-King wouldn't have been so reckless had the prophecy never been made. So prophecies fulfill themselves.

Recall Galadriel's words about the visions in the Mirror. Some never come true unless the viewer turns aside to try and prevent them. I suspect that is true about most prophecies.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well I wouldn't really call what Galadriel's mirror sees as prophercies. Prophercies do come tru, no matter what, what the mirror showed is what could come true.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well I wouldn't really call what Galadriel's mirror sees as prophercies. Prophercies do come tru, no matter what, what the mirror showed is what could come true.

Some of the things showed in the Mirror were prophecies, some were illusions, some were things that happened in the past. It was the part of the viewer to sort those out.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But were they prophercies. It was thing that were, things that are and things that have not yet come to pass. With those the viewer could change the course of events. They were only possibilities.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But were they prophecies. It was thing that were, things that are and things that have not yet come to pass. With those the viewer could change the course of events. They were only possibilities.

Dictionary.com lists these five possible definitions for prophecy:

1. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
2. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
3. Such an inspired message or prediction transmitted orally or in writing.
4. The vocation or condition of a prophet.
5. A prediction.

The visions of the mirror definitely fall under #5, and possibly#1 and #2.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that Tolkien meant it to be interpreted like that. Never was prophecy actuaaly said in LotR. Tolkien reffered to it tham as forsight.

[Attalus]

Also from Dictionary.com:

foresight: 1. Perception of the significance and nature of events before they have occurred.
2. Care in providing for the future; prudence. See Synonyms at prudence.
3. The act of looking forward.

#3 would seem to be a synonym of "prophecy," that is, #5, a prediction.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay. I give in.