A Question.

Rûdhaglarien · 08-27-2004, 05:23 PM

I only just realized this:

At the end of GoF, why doesn't Harry see the horses drawing the carriages? The reason is probably mentioned somewhere, but I've missed it, if it was.

He has already witnessed Cedric's death, so... why can't he see them?

sirigorn · 08-27-2004, 08:35 PM

This was explained by JKR. She said that you have to come to terms with the death before you see them. Harry hadn't fully comprehended it yet, you could say, and he definatly hadn't come to terms with it yet, which is why he couldn't see them yet. He was still in shock from it.

~Siri~

Lizra · 08-27-2004, 08:52 PM

Heh! Sounds pretty fishy to me!

sirigorn · 08-27-2004, 09:29 PM

She says she thought about it. Here's exactly what she said:
"Harry had just seen Cedric die when he got back into the carriages to go back to Hogsmeade station. I thought about that at the end of Goblet, because I have known from the word go what was drawing the carriages. From Chamber of Secrets, in which there are carriages drawn by invisible things, I have known what was there. I decided that it would be an odd thing to do right at the end of a book. Anyone who has suffered a bereavement knows that there is the immediate shock but that it takes a little while to appreciate fully that you will never see that person again. Until that had happened, I did not think that Harry could see the Thestrals. That means that when he goes back, he saw these spooky things. It set the tone for Phoenix, which is a much darker book."

~Siri~

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-28-2004, 02:32 AM

But didn't Harry see his parents die so shouldn't he have been able to see them all the time.

***azalea*** · 08-28-2004, 02:06 PM

He was in his crib at the time, according to JKR.

sirigorn · 08-28-2004, 02:21 PM

Exactly. Also, he was too young to really understand it even if he had seen them die. And he didn't see Quirrel die in the first book, he was unconsious at the time.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-28-2004, 02:50 PM

Okay it's just I haven't read the books in ages.

Lizra · 08-28-2004, 03:07 PM

It's her book...so what she says goes...but I'm of the opinion that when you see someone die, you see someone die, right then and there. Anybody know the exact wording of when someone "sees" the thestrals? Is it when you see someone die, or when you suffer the loss that comes from someone's death?

sirigorn · 08-28-2004, 05:09 PM

In Hagrid's class, when he asked why some people can see them and some can't, Hermione said that "you can only see thestrals if you have seen death". So it's neither really. Death isn't the same thing as seeing someone die. But I think that it could be interpeted either way.

~Siri~

sun-star · 08-29-2004, 05:43 AM

I agree with Lizra, it's a bit fishy! I think JKR made up the rule about understanding death just so she could put the Thestrals in Book 5 instead of Book 4...

***azalea*** · 08-29-2004, 03:30 PM

Whe pretty much admits that in the above quote. I agree that literarily it made more sense to introduce them at the start of the next book than at the end of a book, without a chance for explanation. It does seem fishy, but I can accept the explanation. I think there is a period of shock after which the death and what it means sinks in. But realistically I think it would be a matter of hours and not days. I forget how long it was from the time Cedric was killed to when Harry went home on the train, but it was at least a couple of days. He had a recovery period, and then the end of year feast.

sirigorn · 08-29-2004, 05:30 PM

Harry wasn't just in shock from Cedric dying. I mean, in the space of a few hours, he had to face the stuff in the maze, he saw someone he trusted torturing someone else, he was injured twice, he got kidnapped by the his parent's murderer, he was the man who betrayed his parents, his blood helped to restore said murderer whom he also had to deul. He was also tortured himself and saw his parents come out of said murderer's wand. And more. Don't you think that it would take more than a few hours to recover form that? If not weeks? And I personally think it would take a few days if it had just been that he saw Cedric die. That's more than anyone should have to go through in a lifetime, and it happened in a few hours to him.

~Siri~

***azalea*** · 08-29-2004, 05:47 PM

The other stuff doesn't directly have to do with witnessing Cedric's death, which is what JK said was the impetus for his being able to see the thestrals. However, I think you are saying that because of all the other stuff, it took him longer than it might have ; ie, the shock of going through the other stuff in addition to seeing the murder caused the "sinking in" to be delayed. I agree with you.

sirigorn · 08-29-2004, 08:36 PM

Yeah, thats exactly what I mean. If I didn't explain properly, thats for clearing that up.

~Siri~

Rûdhaglarien · 08-29-2004, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirigorn

This was explained by JKR. She said that you have to come to terms with the death before you see them. Harry hadn't fully comprehended it yet, you could say, and he definatly hadn't come to terms with it yet, which is why he couldn't see them yet. He was still in shock from it.

~Siri~

That's what we were thinking (we being my sister and I), but I was lazy and, instead of figuring it out for meeself, I just asked you! Thanks.

08-27-2004, 05:23 PM	#1
Rûdhaglarien Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 288	A Question. I only just realized this: At the end of GoF, why doesn't Harry see the horses drawing the carriages? The reason is probably mentioned somewhere, but I've missed it, if it was. He has already witnessed Cedric's death, so... why can't he see them? __________________ I have a very expensive pen.

08-27-2004, 08:35 PM	#2
sirigorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: who wants to know? looks around suspiciously Posts: 497	This was explained by JKR. She said that you have to come to terms with the death before you see them. Harry hadn't fully comprehended it yet, you could say, and he definatly hadn't come to terms with it yet, which is why he couldn't see them yet. He was still in shock from it. ~Siri~ __________________ Gimli: It was already dead Legolas: It was twitching! Gimli: It was twitching...because it's got my axe embeded in it's nervous system!! -Two Towers extended DVD I'm wearing black for Black. Well, then, I confess, it is my intention to commandeer one of these ships, pick up a crew in Tortuga, raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out!~Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean

08-27-2004, 08:52 PM	#3
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Heh! Sounds pretty fishy to me! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

08-27-2004, 09:29 PM	#4
sirigorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: who wants to know? looks around suspiciously Posts: 497	She says she thought about it. Here's exactly what she said: "Harry had just seen Cedric die when he got back into the carriages to go back to Hogsmeade station. I thought about that at the end of Goblet, because I have known from the word go what was drawing the carriages. From Chamber of Secrets, in which there are carriages drawn by invisible things, I have known what was there. I decided that it would be an odd thing to do right at the end of a book. Anyone who has suffered a bereavement knows that there is the immediate shock but that it takes a little while to appreciate fully that you will never see that person again. Until that had happened, I did not think that Harry could see the Thestrals. That means that when he goes back, he saw these spooky things. It set the tone for Phoenix, which is a much darker book." ~Siri~ __________________ Gimli: It was already dead Legolas: It was twitching! Gimli: It was twitching...because it's got my axe embeded in it's nervous system!! -Two Towers extended DVD I'm wearing black for Black. Well, then, I confess, it is my intention to commandeer one of these ships, pick up a crew in Tortuga, raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out!~Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean

08-28-2004, 02:32 AM	#5
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	But didn't Harry see his parents die so shouldn't he have been able to see them all the time. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

08-28-2004, 02:06 PM	#6
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	He was in his crib at the time, according to JKR.

08-28-2004, 02:21 PM	#7
sirigorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: who wants to know? looks around suspiciously Posts: 497	Exactly. Also, he was too young to really understand it even if he had seen them die. And he didn't see Quirrel die in the first book, he was unconsious at the time. __________________ Gimli: It was already dead Legolas: It was twitching! Gimli: It was twitching...because it's got my axe embeded in it's nervous system!! -Two Towers extended DVD I'm wearing black for Black. Well, then, I confess, it is my intention to commandeer one of these ships, pick up a crew in Tortuga, raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out!~Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean

08-28-2004, 02:50 PM	#8
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Okay it's just I haven't read the books in ages. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

08-28-2004, 03:07 PM	#9
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	It's her book...so what she says goes...but I'm of the opinion that when you see someone die, you see someone die, right then and there. Anybody know the exact wording of when someone "sees" the thestrals? Is it when you see someone die, or when you suffer the loss that comes from someone's death? __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

08-28-2004, 05:09 PM	#10
sirigorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: who wants to know? looks around suspiciously Posts: 497	In Hagrid's class, when he asked why some people can see them and some can't, Hermione said that "you can only see thestrals if you have seen death". So it's neither really. Death isn't the same thing as seeing someone die. But I think that it could be interpeted either way. ~Siri~ __________________ Gimli: It was already dead Legolas: It was twitching! Gimli: It was twitching...because it's got my axe embeded in it's nervous system!! -Two Towers extended DVD I'm wearing black for Black. Well, then, I confess, it is my intention to commandeer one of these ships, pick up a crew in Tortuga, raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out!~Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean

08-29-2004, 05:43 AM	#11
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	I agree with Lizra, it's a bit fishy! I think JKR made up the rule about understanding death just so she could put the Thestrals in Book 5 instead of Book 4... __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

08-29-2004, 03:30 PM	#12
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Whe pretty much admits that in the above quote. I agree that literarily it made more sense to introduce them at the start of the next book than at the end of a book, without a chance for explanation. It does seem fishy, but I can accept the explanation. I think there is a period of shock after which the death and what it means sinks in. But realistically I think it would be a matter of hours and not days. I forget how long it was from the time Cedric was killed to when Harry went home on the train, but it was at least a couple of days. He had a recovery period, and then the end of year feast.

08-29-2004, 05:30 PM	#13
sirigorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: who wants to know? looks around suspiciously Posts: 497	Harry wasn't just in shock from Cedric dying. I mean, in the space of a few hours, he had to face the stuff in the maze, he saw someone he trusted torturing someone else, he was injured twice, he got kidnapped by the his parent's murderer, he was the man who betrayed his parents, his blood helped to restore said murderer whom he also had to deul. He was also tortured himself and saw his parents come out of said murderer's wand. And more. Don't you think that it would take more than a few hours to recover form that? If not weeks? And I personally think it would take a few days if it had just been that he saw Cedric die. That's more than anyone should have to go through in a lifetime, and it happened in a few hours to him. ~Siri~ __________________ Gimli: It was already dead Legolas: It was twitching! Gimli: It was twitching...because it's got my axe embeded in it's nervous system!! -Two Towers extended DVD I'm wearing black for Black. Well, then, I confess, it is my intention to commandeer one of these ships, pick up a crew in Tortuga, raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out!~Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean

08-29-2004, 05:47 PM	#14
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	The other stuff doesn't directly have to do with witnessing Cedric's death, which is what JK said was the impetus for his being able to see the thestrals. However, I think you are saying that because of all the other stuff, it took him longer than it might have ; ie, the shock of going through the other stuff in addition to seeing the murder caused the "sinking in" to be delayed. I agree with you.

08-29-2004, 08:36 PM	#15
sirigorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: who wants to know? looks around suspiciously Posts: 497	Yeah, thats exactly what I mean. If I didn't explain properly, thats for clearing that up. ~Siri~ __________________ Gimli: It was already dead Legolas: It was twitching! Gimli: It was twitching...because it's got my axe embeded in it's nervous system!! -Two Towers extended DVD I'm wearing black for Black. Well, then, I confess, it is my intention to commandeer one of these ships, pick up a crew in Tortuga, raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out!~Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean

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