"The works of Men will outlast us, Gimli.."

[Beren3000]

This quote is said by Legolas upon his visiting of the Glittering Caves in Helm's Deep. My question is, why did he say this? Is this prophetic of the start of the Age of Men? Or does it have a deeper meaning related to the nature of Elves and Men?

Speculate away!

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

This quote is said by Legolas upon his visiting of the Glittering Caves in Helm's Deep. My question is, why did he say this? Is this prophetic of the start of the Age of Men? Or does it have a deeper meaning related to the nature of Elves and Men?

Speculate away!

I think the actual quote is: "The deeds of Men will outlast us. Gimli."
I think Legolas the Elf was rather sad when he said this - he knew that Men was destined to take over the world, and that the Elves were bound to either leave Middle-Earth or to slowly fade.

[Beren3000]

I thought the quote has something to do with the Elves art being perfect and all that (mentioned in the foreword to the Sil.); in this context, Legolas' quote would be symbolic of a certain "deeper" meaning...Then again, I probably thought wrong

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I thought the quote has something to do with the Elves art being perfect and all that (mentioned in the foreword to the Sil.);

Which edition of the Sil are you referring to? I can't find it ....

Originally Posted by Beren3000

in this context, Legolas' quote would be symbolic of a certain "deeper" meaning...Then again, I probably thought wrong

I don't think there's any right ot wrong in this case, only different opinions. Would you care to elaborate on your opinion?

[Beren3000]

The edition I'm referring to is the Harper Collins edition. Black cover, with a small circle in the middle containing one of Tolkien's designs.

Here's my opinion:
In this foreword, Tolkien says that Elves, being immortal, are the perfect artists because they can continually add to and improve their works. He calls them the "artist's dream", IIRC. So my point is, Men's works being transient and "incomplete" from the Elves' point of view deserves more merit because if they could create such beautiful works during their "short" life span, it is certainly a feat to be celebrated. On the other hand, Elves' works, however more beautiful than those of Men, are not to be given this much praise because Elves had an unfairly long time to work on them. So in this context, Legolas is saying that people will remember the work of Men more than that of the Elves. So what do you think?

[Bombadillo]

I don't think he was showing a prophecy so much as some foresight. Notable deeds of the elves included their alliance with men against Sauron, and "other things" which have already begun to fade from the general public's memory in Middle Earth, even despite the elves' art that carries those stories. But Man's abolition of Sauron and all evil by Aragorn, as the newest and final chapter of great deeds, would naturally stay in people's minds much longer, and proabably distract attention from older, seemingly less important deeds of the elves. Dwarves just missed their chance for such glory when Men restored happiness forever, which is sad in itself though, because the dwarves surely would have kicked ass.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Here's my opinion:
In this foreword, Tolkien says that Elves, being immortal, are the perfect artists because they can continually add to and improve their works. He calls them the "artist's dream", IIRC.

Thank you, I have not read that, my edition obviously has a different foreword.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

So my point is, Men's works being transient and "incomplete" from the Elves' point of view deserves more merit because if they could create such beautiful works during their "short" life span, it is certainly a feat to be celebrated. On the other hand, Elves' works, however more beautiful than those of Men, are not to be given this much praise because Elves had an unfairly long time to work on them. So in this context, Legolas is saying that people will remember the work of Men more than that of the Elves. So what do you think?

It's an interesting view of art that I've never considered before. The question is, does art get better if it is continually worked on and 'improved'? Wouldn't it be more like craft then? I think of art as something emerged out of a momentary inspiration and ability, something that can be made once and never again.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Notable deeds of the elves included their alliance with men against Sauron, and "other things" which have already begun to fade from the general public's memory in Middle Earth, even despite the elves' art that carries those stories. But Man's abolition of Sauron and all evil by Aragorn, as the newest and final chapter of great deeds, would naturally stay in people's minds much longer, and proabably distract attention from older, seemingly less important deeds of the elves.

I agree with this. The Elves, due to their immortality, carried the stories of the Elder days with them, unchanged. But in the hands of short-lived Men the stories would get altered and forgotten over time. When the Elves no longer were around, I guess Men would mostly concentrate on the history concerning themselves, just like the Elves did not bother much about the history of Men (or Dwarves, for that matter).

[Attalus]

I agree with Artanis. I think that Legolas, seeing the waning of his people in Middle-earth and the increase in Men, and the decline of the Dwarves, was prophesying that the Fourth Age would be without the color and glamor and craft of the Elves and the Dwarves; in fact, the end of all Magic. This has always been the saddest quote in the books to me.

[ethuiliel]

I agree with Artanis that it refers to the Elves fading or leaving ME as Men take over.... It might even be a hint to Tolkien's idea of ME being our history... There are no men and dwarves here now, and there are surely many "deeds of Men" being done... I think this is just one of Tolkien's sublte hints that bring the reader into the story, and make the story feel more like history than fantasy.

[Beren3000]

Good POV, ethuiliel. I never looked at it that way, but now you mention it, it makes sense!

[Ulmo]

The reign of man was built in to the Music from the beginning. Men were destined to take the place of elves as the primary race in Middle-earth. This is reflected by a number of things; one of the most obvious being the unions of Tuor and Idril and Beren and Luthien, and their descendants' (re)union in Aragorn and Arwen.

Tolkien makes this comment in Letter 153:

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Ulmo

The reign of man was built in to the Music from the beginning. Men were destined to take the place of elves as the primary race in Middle-earth.

It is still sad, to me. I miss the Elves and Dwarves. All the magic went out of Middle-earth with them, unless, of course, you count the Faded.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Artanis

It's an interesting view of art that I've never considered before. The question is, does art get better if it is continually worked on and 'improved'? Wouldn't it be more like craft then? I think of art as something emerged out of a momentary inspiration and ability, something that can be made once and never again.

Have to disagree there! We all agree that Tolkien was an artist, don't we? Yet he spent years tweaking and fine tuning LoTR into the shape that we know and love today. So do many writers, and painters and sculptors etc...I mean, how many painters prepared study sketches for their famous paintings and then changed their mind about them to make "better" drawings.
So if Men improve their art over a period of months or years, then (taken to scale) Elves would improve their art over a period of hundreds of years.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

This is not my personal opinion but it is one that people rarely think about, and that is that there is nothing deep and profound about that line. Tolkien, while an incredible writer probably did not, nor could not make every line and every word extreamly deep and thoughtful. It is possible that this is just a litteral translation of the works of men(buildings, rings, etc.) and deeds of men( destruction, or none destruction of the ring, etc.) will go on and on even after Legolas and Gimli have departed from Middle Earth. One way to ythink about it... that there is nothing more than what is there...

[Ulmo]

It is still sad, to me. I miss the Elves and Dwarves. All the magic went out of Middle-earth with them, unless, of course, you count the Faded.

Of course! I completely agree. (Middle-)earth is a lot more trite without them.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Have to disagree there! We all agree that Tolkien was an artist, don't we? Yet he spent years tweaking and fine tuning LoTR into the shape that we know and love today. So do many writers, and painters and sculptors etc...I mean, how many painters prepared study sketches for their famous paintings and then changed their mind about them to make "better" drawings.

True, but I think all great artists use their skill in craft as well as their artistic abilities. The fine-tuning is perhaps more an example of craft than of art ... I'm not an artist though, and may have a very romantic view on how they work.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Artanis

True, but I think all great artists use their skill in craft as well as their artistic abilities. The fine-tuning is perhaps more an example of craft than of art ...

I agree with this for in The Fellowship Of The Ring at the feast in honour of Frodo's recovery Gloin was recorded to say
'You should see the waterways of Dale, Frodo, and the fountains, and the pools! You should see the stone-paved roads of many colours! And the halls and cavernous streets under the earth with arches carved like trees; and the terraces and towers upon the Mountain's sides!'
For this could be neither due to just skill in craft or artistic abilities but to both combined.