The Lay of the Children of Hurin and Greek tragedy

[Beren3000]

I don't know if there was an old thread pertaining to this subject (I'm new to the Moot) but have you ever heard of Oedipus Rex, a Greek tragedy play by Sophocles?

It tells of this man Oedipus who was foretold to kill his father and marry his mother. So his father sends him away while he's a baby. Of course he ends up (not knowing) killing his REAL father and marrying his mother. Now when he finds out, his mother kills herself and he puts his eyes out. The play has a sequel (Antigone) that talks about Oedipus's daughter who goes out on a limb to ensure a proper burial for her brother who died in battle. Failing to do this, she kills herself.

Doesn't this sound vaguely similar to the tale of Turin and his sister? What do you think?

[Jonathan]

It sure does. Surely Tolkien had Oedipus in mind when coming up with the story about Túrin. However there are many stories similar to the one about Oedipus. I don’t think Tolkien stole that many ideas from Greek plays and myth when he created his universe. He was probably more interested in myths and folktales from other regions than Greece and that there is more from Celtic, Saxon and Norse myth in his stories.

When writing about Túrin, Tolkien was probably quite inspired by the Finnish national epic Kalevala (he was very found of the Finnish language and its poetry). In Kalevala, there is a story about the boy Kullervo who seduces a girl who turns out to be his sister. Just like Niniel, the girl throws herself into a river when she finds out who Kullervo really is. Eventually Kullervo takes his life too.

Some elements in the story about Túrin are also likely to be derived from the Icelandic 'Saga of the Volsungs', where Sigurd fights and kills the dragon Fafner and at the end, Sigurd stabs himself with his sword.


Welcome to the Moot, Beren3000!

[Beren3000]

Thanks for your welcome.

I've read a lot about the Kalevala (sp.?) and the Finnish influence on Tolkien's work in general. But have you actually read the Kalevala or that tale of Sigurd? If so where did you find them?

[Jonathan]

I have only read extracts from both works. I'm sure you can find some extracts if you do a search on Google.

[Stephen]

kalevala stuff

kalevala text

[Maedhros]

I'm a big fan of the greek mythos. This is a post that I did on another forum a long time ago.

like in this story Layo and Oedipus, both try to "twist" their fate and avoid the predicted path and finally, by doing this, they actually fulfill the predictions.

I would say that only Laius tried to twist his fate more than Oedipus.
From Oedipus Rex:

To Laius, King of Thebes, an oracle foretold that the child born to him by his queen Jocasta would slay his father and wed his mother.
So when in time a son was born the infant's feet were riveted together
and he was left to die on Mount Cithaeron. But a shepherd found the
babe and tended him, and delivered him to another shepherd who took
him to his master, the King or Corinth.

Afterwards doubting his parentage he inquired of the Delphic god
and heard himself the weird declared before to Laius. Wherefore he
fled from what he deemed his father's house and in his flight he
encountered and unwillingly slew his father Laius. Arriving at Thebes
he answered the riddle of the Sphinx and the grateful Thebans made
their deliverer king. So he reigned in the room of Laius, and
espoused the widowed queen.

Lauis knew about his son, but Oedipus didn't knew that his father was Laius.
In a way Oedipus is innocent because he is taken by "fate". He was a hero to the people of Thebes because he solved the riddle of the Sphinx.
There was a "plague" in Thebes an Oedipus as King send Creon to investigate what could help the city. When Creon returns he says to Oedipus:

Let me report then all the god declared.
King Phoebus bids us straitly extirpate
A fell pollution that infests the land,
And no more harbor an inveterate sore.

This referst to a person who has done terrible deeds. Oedipus.
Like Túrin, it was Oedipus pride that doomed him, but as we shall see, he was already doomed.
This is what the sage Teiresias told the King Oedipus:

Is it so? Then I charge thee to abide
By thine own proclamation; from this day
Speak not to these or me. Thou art the man,
Thou the accursed polluter of this land.
I say thou livest with thy nearest kin
In infamy, unwitting in thy shame.

He was married with his mother without really knowing about it.
This is what the Oracle told Oedipus:

Aye, 'tis no secret. Loxias once foretold
That I should mate with mine own mother, and shed
With my own hands the blood of my own sire.
Hence Corinth was for many a year to me
A home distant; and I trove abroad,
But missed the sweetest sight, my parents' face.

And then when a servant tell Oedipus that he is not the Son of the King of Corinth:

Know that he took thee from my hands, a gift.

Again Oedipus pride:

Let the storm burst, my fixed resolve still holds,
To learn my lineage, be it ne'er so low.
It may be she with all a woman's pride
Thinks scorn of my base parentage. But I
Who rank myself as Fortune's favorite child,
The giver of good gifts, shall not be shamed.
She is my mother and the changing moons
My brethren, and with them I wax and wane.
Thus sprung why should I fear to trace my birth?
Nothing can make me other than I am.

Is it so wrong to desire to know who you really are?
When Oedipus finally learns the truth:

Then had I never come to shed
My father's blood nor climbed my mother's bed;
The monstrous offspring of a womb defiled,
Co-mate of him who gendered me, and child.
Was ever man before afflicted thus,
Like Oedipus.

And in the end.

Look ye, countrymen and Thebans, this is Oedipus the great,
He who knew the Sphinx's riddle and was mightiest in our state.
Who of all our townsmen gazed not on his fame with envious eyes?
Now, in what a sea of troubles sunk and overwhelmed he lies!
Therefore wait to see life's ending ere thou count one mortal blest;
Wait till free from pain and sorrow he has gained his final rest.

Isn't this very similar to the tale of Túrin.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Like Túrin, it was Oedipus pride that doomed him

Actually, I think this is debatable. I think that Turin's pride didn't directly contribute to his doom. I think that his pride was rather a product of the curse. IOW had Morgoth not cursed Hurin and his children, I think that Turin wouldn't have been so proud.

[Maedhros]

Actually, I think this is debatable. I think that Turin's pride didn't directly contribute to his doom. I think that his pride was rather a product of the curse. IOW had Morgoth not cursed Hurin and his children, I think that Turin wouldn't have been so proud.

Húrin's family was proudful even before the curse of Morgoth. I don't think that you can point to Morgoth into making them proud.

[Falagar]

But then, his pride wouldn't have had that much effect without Morgoth's curse.

[Beren3000]

Exactly!

[Sister Golden Hair]

You would have to atribute some of the events that take place with Turin to free will though. So, I don't think that everything bad that happened to him accounts to the curse, but some prideful, bad decisions. For instance: leaving Doriath after the death of Saeros, influencing Orodreth to change Finrod's defensive policies and fight more openly by building the bridge over the Narog, which became Nargothrond's certian doom. I think we see the effects of the curse in things that were more out of Turin's control, such as: killing Beleg, meeting Gwindor and being brought to Nargothrond, the marriage between him and Nienor, his failure to save Finduilus. However, without Turin's prideful choices, and the curse of Morgoth coming together, events would have turned out differently. They seem to have fed one another.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
They seem to have fed one another.

Interesting point!

[Maedhros]

From the Published Silmarillion

But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore to willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

But then, his pride wouldn't have had that much effect without Morgoth's curse.

Túrin had the power to defeat the Curse, remember that the gift of Ilúvatar is greater than a curse of Morgoth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Túrin had the power to defeat the Curse, remember that the gift of Ilúvatar is greater than a curse of Morgoth.

Well, that may have been true at some point, but remember that the Gift of Iluvatar had been tainted, supposedly by Morgoth before the Edain had entered into Beleriand, by listening to the second voice, according to the Tale of Adanel.

[Maedhros]

Well, that may have been true at some point, but remember that the Gift of Iluvatar had been tainted, supposedly by Morgoth before the Edain had entered into Beleriand, by listening to the second voice, according to the Tale of Adanel.

From Morgoth's Ring: The Tale of Adanel

The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'

In no part it says that the gift that he gave to men was tainted, rather their original lifespans were shortened.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
From Morgoth's Ring: The Tale of Adanel

In no part it says that the gift that he gave to men was tainted, rather their original lifespans were shortened.

Without useing the word "tainted" though, I believe that Andreth says as much to Finrod in the Athrabeth, that death is not a gift, or that they (the Edain) did not see it as one.

[Maedhros]

Without useing the word "tainted" though, I believe that Andreth says as much to Finrod in the Athrabeth, that death is not a gift, or that they (the Edain) did not see it as one.

Even if Men didn't see death as a gift, it was one nonetheless, and the ability that Men had to shape their own fate remained there.

[Beren3000]

But, Maedhros, in all the history of ME, a lot of people suffered hardships. You find Beren having to face Morgoth, Aragorn having to face Sauron and Frodo carries the Ring etc...But eventually, Illuvatar creates some sort of reward for them. Beren finds Luthien after death, Aragorn marries Arwen and Frodo sails to Valinor. But what's Turin's reward? He NEVER experienced happiness in his life (except with Nienor, which eventually aggravated his misery). Do you think that Illuvatar wouldn't have pitied him?
IMO, his life was all ruined by the curse (Or rather by the simultaneous actions of the curse and his pride as SGH pointed out). His free will had very little part to play in that, if at all.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Even if Men didn't see death as a gift, it was one nonetheless, and the ability that Men had to shape their own fate remained there.

True, but nevertheless, the fact that they had listened to the second voice, tainted the gift in their minds, and they now feared death.

[Maedhros]

True, but nevertheless, the fact that they had listened to the second voice, tainted the gift in their minds, and they now feared death.

They might fear or despise death, but nevertheless the ability to shape their own future was never taken away from them, and that had nothing to do with fearing or despising death.

IMO, his life was all ruined by the curse (Or rather by the simultaneous actions of the curse and his pride as SGH pointed out). His free will had very little part to play in that, if at all.

Free will it is an interesting thing really.
1. Túrin could have returned to Doriath but he chose not to.
2. Túrin could have kept his visor when he faced Glaurung but he didn't and therefore was defeated by him.

Túrin could have chose differently but he didn't. If Morgoth could control so easily Men, why didn't he curse more of them? He could have cursed those who rebelled against him, but he didn't.

But, Maedhros, in all the history of ME, a lot of people suffered hardships. You find Beren having to face Morgoth, Aragorn having to face Sauron and Frodo carries the Ring etc...But eventually, Illuvatar creates some sort of reward for them. Beren finds Luthien after death, Aragorn marries Arwen and Frodo sails to Valinor. But what's Turin's reward? He NEVER experienced happiness in his life (except with Nienor, which eventually aggravated his misery). Do you think that Illuvatar wouldn't have pitied him?

How do we know of the rewards that Men might have after the end of their lives outside of Arda? My guess is that Túrin is not alone either, and that there were other men in the service of Morgoth that were slaves all of their lives. At least Túrin had a chance.