Muslims

[Sween]

Now there have been a few comments in other threads of late which have both intrested me and worried me! Relating Orcs to Muslims in the Should we show orcs pity thread!

Are all Muslims tarnished with the brush of west hating phycos? Hell bent on causeing so much harm to people its without reason?

When we think Muslim today what do we think? Do we think they all hate us and want to take over? As i know many people in England do!

How many of us know Muslims well? How many of us would be willing to get to know a Muslim?

I personally grew up with a Muslim boy he was called Sanj! Cockermouth is a strange place (and thats not just the name) because we havent got much of an asian comunity! Its still a very white area! So Sanj grew up with all white friends and to be honest you couldnt meet a nicer lad he fits in as well as anyone i have ever meet and is not at all reclusive(and a bit gay me suspects)

Now when i lived in Scunthorpe for two years there were a lot of Muslims and they did all stick together and didnt really like to mix with people. Infact a lot of them were downright racist! But we had one of them Sadrul on our course and when he was just with us he was again a nice lad it seemed to me its when they are together they became shy and recluse.

Now the comments made on other threads worried me because they showed that people seem to think all Muslims were the same which is simply not true. I have allways been dead set against the way we let Sinn Fainn and other such partys get elected to government in this country as they have there own terrorist agendas!

So how do you feel about Muslims and more importantally how does you nation and media see and show them because if we let this base racism continue we are in for all sorts of problems

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thank you Sween, for taking this to the proper forum.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Thank you Sween, for taking this to the proper forum.

Welcome hun! Is that all youve got to say on the subject?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sween
Welcome hun! Is that all youve got to say on the subject?

For now.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
For now.

You really are the biggest spammer i know

[Millane]

well in australia as much as we love the multicultural them it isnt as if we have a few hicks in the sticks who are absolute nutcases when it comes to racism. when Pauline Hanson got into politics it didnt surprise me at all when she was winning every vote in queensland, western australia and northern territory, it differs from community as to your 'multiculturalism'... I live in bendigo and i am happy to say it is a multicultural city. Largely thanks to the gold rush that brought thousands of chinese prospectors here we now have a wonderful heritage that includes the longest chinese dragon in the southern hemisphere... as for muslims well i dont know any personally but there are quite a few muslim students at LaTrobe down here and they are accepted like any other aussie... after all this terrorism bullshit their have been some mosque attacks but that is just loser suburbian rats with nothing better to do and i think they were condemned by the majority of australians...

[The Gaffer]

I'm glad you brought this up because I think it's a defining issue of our time.

It sometimes it seems like the neoconservatives would like us to supplant "Muslim" for "Communist" in our lexicon of fear. We need someone to be afraid of so they can carry on spending our money on copious quantities of death-dealing hardware.

Sinn Fein is a great example. You wouldn't consider the terms "Sinn Fein" and "catholic" synonymous, would you? So why do we so easily confuse "muslim" with "Al-Qa'ida"?

Another reason why it's a good example is because they're part of the political process now and they have renounced terrorism.

[Artanis]

I do not now think anything in particular about muslims. They are as different as all other people. Two of my former colleagues were muslims, one guy from Morocco who held Ramadan, didn't eat any porc meat and never tasted any alcohol. The other guy from Iran wasn't that religious, he was fond of whisky and women. Both were nice and clever guys. There's a muslim woman from Somalia working in our pre-school daycare, she is wearing the hijab all the time. I like her, she's gentle and smart.

I admit that I was prejudiced against muslims before I got to know these people. I talked much with the Iranian guy, he said he was tired of explaining why he didn't behave like a muslim. He was tired of facing all the negative expectations other people had of him when they put the label 'muslim' on him.

[jerseydevil]

I've never had a problem with muslims in general. We have a huge mosque on Rt 1 aobut 5 minutes from me.

I do however have a problem with a lot of muslims in the middle east. Like the ones who go out into the street to celebrate and cheer the latest bombing. A lot of there attitudes are so backwater - the women are treated as second class citizen. In Saudi Arabia a women can't even drive. Women get acid thrown on their face for looking at a guy whoe is not a relative. They get their faces slashed if they go out without being covered. This to me is barbarism. This is not al-qaeda.

I also have a problem with the hate they teach in their textbooks in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Middle East. Some of the stuff is truly disgusting. In their textbooks in Saudi Arabia it actually says that they have a duty to kill the infedels. The US has recently vehemently denounced the Saudi Arabian government for allowing this teaching and their textbooks have been watered down - but the message is still in there.

I have no problem with a person being muslim. But the middle east is one of the most violent place on the face of the planet.

Here are articles from Time maginazine Sept 15, 2003...

Inside the Kingdom: Two years after 9/11, the Saudis are finally cracking down on terrorists at home. But many Americans remain skeptical that the Saudi brand of Islam is compatible with the war against terrorism

ROOTS OF TERROR: In Pakistan, Britain and Indonesia, radicals preach a hate that breeds violence

Keys to the Kingdom: Founded by religious warriors and made wealthy by oil, Saudi Arabia struggles to face its homegrown ties to terrorism

Wahhabism: Toxic Faith?

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I've never had a problem with muslims in general. We have a huge mosque on Rt 1 aobut 5 minutes from me.

I do however have a problem with a lot of muslims in the middle east. Like the ones who go out into the street to celebrate and cheer the latest bombing. A lot of there attitudes are so backwater - the women are treated as second class citizen. In Saudi Arabia a women can't even drive. Women get acid thrown on their face for looking at a guy whoe is not a relative. They get their faces slashed if they go out without being covered. This to me is barbarism. This is not al-qaeda.

I also have a problem with the hate they teach in their textbooks in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Middle East. Some of the stuff is truly disgusting. In their textbooks in Saudi Arabia it actually says that they have a duty to kill the infedels. The US has recently vehemently denounced the Saudi Arabian government for allowing this teaching and their textbooks have been watered down - but the message is still in there.

I have no problem with a person being muslim. But the middle east is one of the most violent place on the face of the planet.

Ah but is there a growing problem with people been painted with the same brush? The comment in the thread worried me is that what people think of a whole race?

Some Muslim belifs are indeeed what we would consider backward. (well only backward by a 100 years or so) i was watching a news report on sky news about saudi aribia which was very intresting in it this prince said that they were trying to move into the modern world but they had lived out of it for a hundred years or so and more importantally THEY HADNT PLAYED A PART IN ITS SHAPING OR VALUES i feel this is a significent point we have taliored the world in which we would concider modern ourselves, so they will never fully fall into line and to do so will take massive effort

[IronParrot]

Look, here's the fundamental difference:

Muslims were not made and conceived as evil beings. It doesn't matter how evil you think Islam is (or how wrong you are in that respect) - Muslims were not made evil.

Orcs, on the other hand...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Ah but is there a growing problem with people been painted with the same brush? The comment in the thread worried me is that what people think of a whole race?

I don't think there is an a extreme example of painting all muslims with the same brush. Here - there isn't any violence against them. There was outrage after 9/11. I can't deny the fact that when I go into a store and there is a middle Eastern person in front of me that I don't think about whether they are a terrorist. The terrorist headuarters was in Paterson NJ. The 1993 Twin Towers bombing was organized in Jersey City. I am dreading the moment when they start bombing our grocery stores and our movie theaters and restaurants. Maybe it won't happen - but I think eventually it will - unless a change is made in their attitude toward other people and races.

Some Muslim belifs are indeeed what we would consider backward. (well only backward by a 100 years or so) i was watching a news report on sky news about saudi aribia which was very intresting in it this prince said that they were trying to move into the modern world but they had lived out of it for a hundred years or so and more importantally THEY HADNT PLAYED A PART IN ITS SHAPING OR VALUES i feel this is a significent point we have taliored the world in which we would concider modern ourselves, so they will never fully fall into line and to do so will take massive effort

I must say - I don't trust the Saudi government at all. They play lip service to the west and then let the hatred go on in their own countries and breed and then it is unleashed on the world. They have no plans to allow women to drive - they have no plans to allow women to go uncovered. It's all a smoke screen as far as I'm concerned. They need the west and they know it - but they still will not give up their archaic beliefs.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Sween
Ah but is there a growing problem with people been painted with the same brush? The comment in the thread worried me is that what people think of a whole race?

Some Muslim belifs are indeeed what we would consider backward. (well only backward by a 100 years or so) i was watching a news report on sky news about saudi aribia which was very intresting in it this prince said that they were trying to move into the modern world but they had lived out of it for a hundred years or so and more importantally THEY HADNT PLAYED A PART IN ITS SHAPING OR VALUES i feel this is a significent point we have taliored the world in which we would concider modern ourselves, so they will never fully fall into line and to do so will take massive effort

We have to be careful with our terms here- Muslims are members of a religion,not a race.

Your point about 'modernity' being a creation of the West is a good one- though I personally am such a child of the Enlightenment that I insist that values such as equal rights for women (and all other indivduals) are universal.

Interestingly, the two largest Muslim countries in the world have both already elected women presidents.

[jerseydevil]

One thing that really annoys me about the Middle East also - is the fact that western women have to go covered even though they are not muslim. When female journalists are there reporting - they have to be covered. Supposedly when the Saudi prince flew in to visit Bush - the Prince told the air traffic controllers there was to be no women controllers guiding his plane in. The White House denied this - but I wouldn't be surprised.

Why does the west have to be understanding to their religion and they don't give us the same curtesy? it's a two way street. You should see some of the oputrageous stuff they teach about the jews and the west in general. It would make you sick.

[Valandil]

JD - I have to disagree with you about the Saudi government. They seem to actually be a moderating, progressive force over a very conservative populace. If they try to take the country too far, too fast - they'll have a revolution on their hands. The new government would likely be more representative of Islamic Fundamentalism and much less friendly to the west. That's why the US is so interested in keeping the current regime in power there.

The hatred in Saudi (and Palestinian) textbooks is awful... raising their next generation that way.

Personally, I don't have the same worries about Muslims and / or Arabs I interact with. Have worked with many - and have some good friends among them. What's unfortunate is that there is a sub-group of Muslims who have a plan for the rest of us... they want us to become Muslims or they want us dead. Most properly, that should be changed within Islam. That will take time - and I sincerely hope it happens.

GM - those two largest Muslim countries you mention are in SE Asia, not the Middle East. SE Asia is much more populous - which is why this is the case.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
A lot of there attitudes are so backwater - the women are treated as second class citizen. In Saudi Arabia a women can't even drive. Women get acid thrown on their face for looking at a guy whoe is not a relative. They get their faces slashed if they go out without being covered. This to me is barbarism. This is not al-qaeda.

Much of this is about politics, culture, power and sexism in general, and not so much about religion. There are Western female white muslims who wear their hijab and follow the religious laws, but wouldn't dream of calling themselves oppressed (well, not more than any other western woman would). They are muslims, but they also follow the secular laws in the country where they live.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
One thing that really annoys me about the Middle East also - is the fact that western women have to go covered even though they are not muslim. When female journalists are there reporting - they have to be covered.

Our behaviour is not much better. In France two girls, sisters, have just been expelled from their High School because they refused to take off their hijab. I think that's just tragic. In Norway we have a similar debate. Should an employer in general decide what an employee should wear? Should muslim women be denied a job because they're wearing a hijab? I honestly don't see why they should.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Valandil
JD - I have to disagree with you about the Saudi government. They seem to actually be a moderating, progressive force over a very conservative populace. If they try to take the country too far, too fast - they'll have a revolution on their hands. The new government would likely be more representative of Islamic Fundamentalism and much less friendly to the west. That's why the US is so interested in keeping the current regime in power there.

That is only partially true in my opinion. From what I have seen and heard - they are giving too much lip service and have for years. They have started cracking down on terrorist elements lately - but that is only because the US govenrment has been pushing them. They also know that less than 50% of the US population trusts them right now.

Originally posted by Artanis
Much of this is about politics, culture, power and sexism in general, and not so much about religion. There are Western female white muslims who wear their hijab and follow the religious laws, but wouldn't dream of calling themselves oppressed (well, not more than any other western woman would). They are muslims, but they also follow the secular laws in the country where they live.

We have muslim women here like that too - and that's their choice - we live in a free country. Unlike in France - students are also able to wear their scarves and coverings in school (currently there is this huge thing about 2 students practice muslim and they have been expelled for wearing head scarves). The thing is - they arent forced to wear shorts and jeans here - but western women who go over there are forced to wear head scarves. They don't have freedoms there.

[Valandil]

I agree that this clothing shouldn't keep them from a job.

We had a twist on this in Florida which I found sort of humorous though. A Muslim woman wanted to be able to get a driver's license - and have her face covered in the photo. Personally, I don't think she should be allowed to do that - driving is a privilege, not a right - and part of that, in our country, is that the driver be able to be clearly identified from their DL. It went round-and-round, I don't recall how it came out (any Floridians here know?).

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
Our behaviour is not much better. In France two girls, sisters, have just been expelled from their High School because they refused to take off their hijab. I think that's just tragic. In Norway we have a similar debate. Should an employer in general decide what an employee should wear? Should muslim women be denied a job because they're wearing a hijab? I honestly don't see why they should.

Wow - cross post. And I agree with you - I was talking to SGH about it and we both thought that was ridiculous.