UT Discussion - Aldarion and Erendis

***Earniel*** · 04-26-2010, 10:07 AM

SUMMARY

Aldarion's Youth

We’re in NÃºmenor, under the reign of Tar-Elendil. Eventually he will relinquish his sceptre to his son Meneldur who will be King for the most part of this story. Tar-Meneldur is considered a gentle soul with a great interest in stargazing and understanding the heavens; a hobby he had to let go to move to Armenelos, the city of Kings, where he would have to turn his mind to the more terrestrial activities of Kingship.

His son Anardil was also a man of great interests, but one seemingly more inclined to pursue these passions rather than Kingship he was to inherit. Aldarion, as he was later known, had inherited a love for the sea from his maternal grandfather VÃ«antur, and this love was further nurtured by a two year-long voyage when he was 25. Afterwards, Aldarion started to go on more voyages, exploring the coasts of Middle-earth, making at least four great voyages before he turned forty.

This guy was a traveller all right.

Occasionally Aldarion could be gently persuaded to linger at home, such as when his father received the sceptre from Tar-Elendil. But Aldarion’s mind was still on ships, even when he was on dry land. He turned his mind to improving the harbours so he could envision and build larger and larger ships and even prepare for multi-vessel journeys. For this he formed the Guild of Venturers. And eventually he even built himself a boat to live on so he wouldn't have to live on land.

All this did not sit very well with Tar-Meneldur who did not see the merit in these exploits, but as the Queen still supported her son in everything he did, the King mostly let it pass. But he opposed Aldarion indirectly where he could, such as by setting a curb on the felling of trees for ship-building. This only drove Aldarion on more journeys to seek timber elsewhere. He turned to Middle-earth and founded the harbour VinyalondÃ«.

The King's Heir

The dispute between the King and his son was only brought to rest when Aldarion was proclaimed the King’s Heir. With such a proclamation, a feast was necessarily in order. And it was on this feast that Erendis, a beautiful woman of the Line or BÃ«or, first entered in the story.

Erendis noticed Aldarion, and apparently like what she saw, even though we do not know whether Aldarion had similar ideas at the time. But if he didn't, the Queen Almarian certainly was going to make sure he would, by having Erendis join her household.

Aldarion’s mind was not yet on marriage -despite suggestions of the King in that direction- and soon afterwards he took to sea again. But not before seeing Erendis. Nevertheless, the lass would have to wait another seven years before they actually would get to meet again.

While Aldarion continued to go on voyages, his father continued to try and keep his son at home, by denying the women of his household to bring Aldarion a Green Bough. This Green Bough was a branch cut from a ever-green tree named oilolairÃ«. This branch was then set upon a vessel’s prow on its departure, in a custom the NÃºmenoreans had taken from the Eldar. Erendis twice helped Aldarion acquire a Green Bough in subterfuge. This move appeared to endear her to him as he returned to NÃºmenor earlier than he had planned Ã*nd with a pricely gift for Erendis.

But eventually Aldarion would set sail in open rebellion against the King’s wishes and in turn Meneldur took counter-measures such as taking away Aldarion’s authority as Lord of the Ships and Havens. Aldarion was not a happy camper when he found this out upon his return and he quickly took to sea again. He took a full 14 years before coming back, during which Erendis decided to return home.

This journey was far from easy and for once Aldarion seemed happy to be home and was even reconciled with the King. He decided not seek out Erendis, but by chance he met her in the forests of the Westlands and finally started to woo her in earnest. This time it was Erendis who's holding back, as she could not help but noticing the differences between them. Wood against sea.

Erendis’ reluctance did not seem to engender much sympathy. Her mother NÃºneth rebuked her for wanting everything or nothing, and that was high time she saw some grandchildren. Despite Erendis not minding her mother’s advice, she and Aldarion did find themselves bethrothed at the ErukyermÃ« festival later that year.

Finally Married

But good times don’t last and Aldarion started getting antsy again. He tried to get Erendis to come with him, but she declined so he went again alone. His journey was beset by difficulties but Erendis welcomed him courteously and they managed to tie the knot the following year. Even the Eldar came over to join the party and gave Aldarion a white tree and Erendis a pair of birds. Here it became obvious, that despite of having received the name Aldarion, the King’s Heir still thought of trees as material only. He even prized the gifted tree for its wood after which the Elves said they wouldn’t know, since they don’t fell these trees because they preferred the leaves and flowers rather than just the wood.

Two years later AncalimÃ«, Aldarion's and Erendis' only daughter, was born. This was the height of their marital bliss, and it only went downward from here. When AncalimÃ« was but four years old, off he went again. This parting caused a significant souring in the marriage and Erendis relocated to EmeriÃ«, as far from the sea as she could and she dismissed the birds the Eldar had given her, while Aldarion stayed away far longer than he had promised her. And so AncalimÃ« grew up in a household of women only, and was taught and instructed by an embittered Erendis.

Upon his return Aldarion found his house empty, and his welcome cold. He left his father with a letter from Gil-galad and travelled to EmeriÃ« where his welcome was possibly even frostier. But he did little to address it and left again early the following day. Before he left, he demanded to see AncalimÃ«, and content to see his daughter had a mind like his own, he commanded her to come to the palace in Armenelos so she would receive a proper training as it was becoming obvious he would not have another heir besides her.

Meanwhile Meneldur read Gil-Galad’s letter and was greatly disturbed. The letter, while praising Aldarion greatly, also spoke of a rising shadow and the prospects of a new war. Meneldur found himself unable to choose a proper path for NÃºmenor and left the sceptre to Aldarion. This, naturally pleased Aldarion, who even as King continued to go on voyages when he desired to do so.

AncalimÃ«

AncalimÃ« grew up to a perfect mix of her parents and seemingly more a child of their dispute than of their marriage for she appeared to delight in opposing and vexing the both of them, at the same time if she could. Nevertheless, Aldarion changed the law so that she could become the first Ruling Queen of NÃºmenor. He also decreed that the King’s Heir should only marry within the Line of Elros, in a apparent effort to saveguard future royal marriages from a similar breakdown as his own.

AncalimÃ«’s life afterwards cannot be called a happy one. Her own marriage started in deceit, as the shepherd she loved when living under cover in EmeriÃ«, turned out to be Hallacar, son of Hallatan, also of the Line of Elros who had assumed the guise of a shepherd to meet her. Eventually they were married. Many reasons could be found for this marriage, but love did not appear to have been among them. Indeed, it seemed the Royal family for two more generations nigh descended into inter-family warfare, with Tar-AncalimÃ« trying to dictate life and marriage of her family-members down to her granddaughters. I take it it was a happy day for the Royal Family when Tar-AncalimÃ« breathed her last. A bitter end for a story that started so promising.

ALDARION's VOYAGES:

I wanted to see just how many years Aldarion spent away from home since he took up travelling, until he became King. He didn't stop travelling when he did ascend the throne, but it becomes unclear from that time on when and how long he remains at sea.

NÃšMENOR[......................................]AWAY AT SEA

25 years (early youth)
[.................................................. .]2 years
3 years
[.................................................. .]3 years
less than 2 years
[.................................................. .]4 years
[...............]several unspecified voyages over a period of 60 years
6 years
[.................................................. .]7 years
unspecified number of years
by counting back I estimate:
about 7 years
[.................................................. .]unspecified but he returns earlier than intended,
[.................................................. .]perhaps 1-2 years?
unspecified number of years
by counting back I estimate:
about 7 years
[.................................................. .]5 years
less than 1 year
[.................................................. .]14 years
18 years
[.................................................. .]6 years
8 years (including marriage)
[.................................................. .]5 years

QUESTIONS

1. Who do you think was eventually a better King, Meneldur who looked no further than the borders of NÃ¹menor but who managed his land and affairs well? Or Aldarion who spent as much time overseas as he did in NÃºmenor but whose help and endeavours were much appreciated by Gil-galad in the fight against the rising Sauron, even though much of his efforts went to naught?

2. For all Aldarion’s taste for sea-voyages, he did not once look to travel west. Why? Was this the injunction of the Valar at work, then why did he not rebel against it, as he did against any order that barred his path?

3. The ships of NÃºmenor continued to sail under the assumed protection of the Valar, and Uinen was held in high esteem but do you think the Valar actually influenced any event in the story of Aldarion and Erendis? If so, what?

4. Did Aldarion really love the sea, or did he see it more as something to conquer, a method merely than a reason to do his own thing and not be beholden to anyone?

5. Was the fact that Erendis came from the Line of BÃ«or (and therefore had a shorter lifespan) an important factor in the rift between her and Aldarion? Do you think they could have overcome this if they had tried?

6. Aldarion increasingly ran into unfavourable currents and bad weather as he continued to journey away from NÃºmenor. His works on the Middle-earth continent continually suffered set-backs, ruin and attacks. Was this a sign of the displeasure of the Valar for disobeying his father? If so they succeeded only in keeping Aldarion longer away from home. But as is later revealed in the story, Aldarion did provide worthwile aid to Gil-galad, even as his own projects continued to fail. May this actually have been the intent all along?

7. Tolkien writes: “For Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of NÃºmenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion.” Would you agree with this assessment of Aldarion’s character?

8. When Erendis’ parents see that Erendis has sent off the birds, NÃºneth says a curious thing: “And may the Valar send her wisdom – or guile, at the least!” Why would she want Erendis to have guile? Why would Erendis need to deceive Aldarion upon his return?

9. It is curious to see that Gil-Galad appears to have a better relationship with Aldarion than Aldarion has with his father. Would this be because Aldarion’s travels fitted well into Gil-Galad’s efforts and there was less friction between their own goals? Or did Aldarion just find it easier to share what was on his mind with one of the Eldar than one of his own people?

10. If Erendis had gone with AncalimÃ« back to Armenelos when Tar-Meneldur asked her to, would this have had any influence of the rift between her and Aldarion, who would now be king?

11. What do you think happened when Erendis at last sought out Aldarion again, when the records only mention: “Erendis perished in water in the year 985.” Do you think Aldarion had a hand in it?

Keith K · 04-26-2010, 05:21 PM

The author did like his irony, having Erendis die in water. I would have had a tree fall on her head.

jammi567 · 04-27-2010, 05:09 PM

1) I think that Aldarion was the better king, if only because he kept in contact with the elves, Numenors allies (at least at the time), and that allowed them to hold back Saurons power at the later date.

2) I think because at the time, the Numenorians still respected the Valar and appreciated at what they had done at the end of the First Age. It isn't until 1300 years later that the Numenorians became at least openly hostile towards the Valar. Even Aldarion isn't that stupid, no matter however many other mistakes he might have made.

3) No, I don't see them influencing anything, at least in terms of Aldarion and Erendis' relationship with each other. If they did want to help out (or influence, however you want to put it) why not when Sauron was fighting against Men and Elves in the 1600's? They didn't, which suggests that they wouldn't bother with something like this. Although, check out 6).

4) I think that, even if it was a challange to conqure the sea in the beginning, it wasn't when he grew older, and used it as a means of escape from the troubles of his wife and father.

5) I don't think lifespan had anything to do with it - I think it was more to do with their clashing personalities. He wanted to keep exploring, whilst she just wanted him to be a damn husband and father with some kind of, you know, presence in her life, and that of her daughter. Especially since he was going to be king reletivly soon as well.

6) In this case, it looks to be part of the "greater good". Sure, the guy will have bad luck and bad relationships and whatnot, but if that means that Middle Earth won't go into deep sh*t, then that's a reasonable price to pay. So, maybe the Valar did help out, just indirectly.

7) Doesn't every monarchy want even a little bit more land? I mean, that's how we got the British Empire, Roman Empire etc in the Real World, even if wanting more land isn't the primary reason.

8) Simply because I didn't know what guile meant, here's a definition for those who are confused:

â€“noun
insidious cunning in attaining a goal; crafty or artful deception; duplicity.

c.1150, from O.Fr. guile, from Frank. *wigila "trick, ruse"

(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guile)

So, basically, I guess NÃºneth is saying that is possible (in her mind at least, even if not that of the general population) for someone to gain the powers of dishonesty. Which, lets face it, is total noncence. Just because someone hasn't shown guile before, doesn't mean that they've never not had it (if that makes any sense at all

). Or maybe she just wants to support her daughter in getting rid of him, and by having guile, Erendis can think up the most hurtful way to do it.

And I agree, I can't see any reason why Erendis would want to decieve her husband, especially if she's just going to leave him anyway. Unless she wants to mentally slap him for all the inconvieniance and trouble he's caused her.

9) Personally, I think the first option is the most likely one, at least at first. Once the two became most then just two leaders fighting a common enemy, then I can see Aldarion talking to Gil-Galad about his problems. I mean, who else would he be able to talk to, and who else could he trust not to spread the word around?

10) No, definatly not. I think that the rift between the two of them had gone on for far, far too long by that point of time, and a trip to the capital city wouldn't have done anything to improve relations - in fact, it might have made them worse.

11) I think that she simply drowned, whether accidently or delibertly. Personally, I think that Aldarion did have a hand in it, if only because having her killed would mean that he has one less problem to worry about during his rule.

-------------------

Anyways, I'm just sad that this is the only properly formed story from the Second Age that Tolkien ever wrote, rather then merely notes. But then, I suppose that's what fanfiction's for, isn't it?

***Earniel*** · 05-03-2010, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammi567

1) I think that Aldarion was the better king, if only because he kept in contact with the elves, Numenors allies (at least at the time), and that allowed them to hold back Saurons power at the later date.

I would have agreed if Tolkien hadn't gone out of his way to say how Aldarion's work all came to nothing. He was 'too early' as NÃºmenor had not built up enough strength, and 'too late' to stop Sauron from rising. AncalimÃ« stopped giving aid to Gil-Galad during her reign and neglected the foot-hold Aldarion had fought for so hard. The following kings would almost have to start over again completely. Although you can indeed say Aldarion laid the fundaments of both friendship and a military alliance with the Eldar. Gil-Galad would have continued to receive the NÃºmenoreans gladly, if only for Aldarion's actions.

Quote:

5) I don't think lifespan had anything to do with it - I think it was more to do with their clashing personalities. He wanted to keep exploring, whilst she just wanted him to be a damn husband and father with some kind of, you know, presence in her life, and that of her daughter. Especially since he was going to be king reletivly soon as well.

I tend to agree. The both of them made much of the life-span difference in the end, which to me seems more as an excuse for their break-up. Neither of them had a personality that made compromises easily, if at all.

Quote:

In this case, it looks to be part of the "greater good". Sure, the guy will have bad luck and bad relationships and whatnot, but if that means that Middle Earth won't go into deep sh*t, then that's a reasonable price to pay. So, maybe the Valar did help out, just indirectly.

I wonder in that case, whether the Valar had anything to do with Aldarion's 'sea-longing'. In parallel with Tuor, who -I would say- got a better deal out of it than Aldarion.

Quote:

Simply because I didn't know what guile meant, here's a definition for those who are confused:

Yeah, I had to look it up too.

But I figured native English-speakers would know it, or I would have included a definition myself. I take it it is not a common word then?

Quote:

Or maybe she just wants to support her daughter in getting rid of him, and by having guile, Erendis can think up the most hurtful way to do it.

I got the impression NÃºneth didn't want Erendis to leave Aldarion. (If your daughter manages to catch a king, I reckon you'd want her to hang on to him. Very useful to have one in the family.) After all, she pushed Erendis to get Aldarion and when Erendis sends away the Elven birds, as a token of the finished marriage, NÃºneth seems disappointed in Erendis' actions rather than satisfied.

Quote:

I mean, who else would he be able to talk to, and who else could he trust not to spread the word around?

Good point, especially since the tongues of NÃºmenor wagged quite a lot about the whole affair.

Quote:

I think that she simply drowned, whether accidently or delibertly. Personally, I think that Aldarion did have a hand in it, if only because having her killed would mean that he has one less problem to worry about during his rule.

Possibly. Too bad Tolkien wrote it so cryptically. We could have had a juicy murder story!

Quote:

Anyways, I'm just sad that this is the only properly formed story from the Second Age that Tolkien ever wrote, rather then merely notes. But then, I suppose that's what fanfiction's for, isn't it?

Yeah, it's sad that Tolkien didn't have more time to give us more fully formed stories. On the other hand, he left plenty opportunity for fan fiction. So many kings and queens with barely a few sentences about their life and reign. The possibilities are endless. Although I doubt that was his intention.

jammi567 · 05-06-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EÃ¤rniel

I would have agreed if Tolkien hadn't gone out of his way to say how Aldarion's work all came to nothing. He was 'too early' as NÃºmenor had not built up enough strength, and 'too late' to stop Sauron from rising. AncalimÃ« stopped giving aid to Gil-Galad during her reign and neglected the foot-hold Aldarion had fought for so hard. The following kings would almost have to start over again completely. Although you can indeed say Aldarion laid the fundaments of both friendship and a military alliance with the Eldar. Gil-Galad would have continued to receive the NÃºmenoreans gladly, if only for Aldarion's actions.

I don't deny what Tolkien says, but I don't get why it was too late to stop Sauron? He didn't begin to build his tower until 1050 (and I doubt that anybody knew about that at the time), and another 150 years before he begins decieving the Elves or Eregion. So I'm personally confused by what Tolkien means here.

Unless I'm just dumb and missing something obvious. It wouldn't be the first time for me.

Quote:

I wonder in that case, whether the Valar had anything to do with Aldarion's 'sea-longing'. In parallel with Tuor, who -I would say- got a better deal out of it than Aldarion.

Definatly agreed there. Although, it does make you wonder what the point of the whole thing was, unless it was always supposed to be just a foundation of the alliance - for whatever reason that might be.

Quote:

Yeah, I had to look it up too.

But I figured native English-speakers would know it, or I would have included a definition myself. I take it it is not a common word then?

Well, I've never heard of it before - but then, that doesn't mean anything. But yeah, it seems to be one of those old-fashioned words that noone uses any more.

Quote:

I got the impression NÃºneth didn't want Erendis to leave Aldarion. (If your daughter manages to catch a king, I reckon you'd want her to hang on to him. Very useful to have one in the family.) After all, she pushed Erendis to get Aldarion and when Erendis sends away the Elven birds, as a token of the finished marriage, NÃºneth seems disappointed in Erendis' actions rather than satisfied.

I have to admit, I didn't have the book when I was answering the questions, so I mainly had to rely on the plot summery you provided, as well as the Tolkien Wiki for my information. So I definatly could have missed something about the way Nuneth said what she said.

(BTW, how did you get that acent over the 'u'?)

Quote:

Possibly. Too bad Tolkien wrote it so cryptically. We could have had a juicy murder story!

Fanfiction for the win! Seriously, I don't know if Tolkien could have written a muder story that was any good. I mean, with those, you have plan ahead before you start writing, not just barge right in, and then make a plan when you're half way through.

No disrespect to The Master, of course.

Quote:

Yeah, it's sad that Tolkien didn't have more time to give us more fully formed stories. On the other hand, he left plenty opportunity for fan fiction. So many kings and queens with barely a few sentences about their life and reign. The possibilities are endless. Although I doubt that was his intention.

Ahhh, but if we did have more information, then there wouldn't be all that much more to discuss, and that wouldn't be any fun at all.

Well, I have to say, it's a good thing that I replied to your questions, otherwise, this thread would totally be dead right about now.

***Earniel*** · 05-07-2010, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammi567

Unless I'm just dumb and missing something obvious. It wouldn't be the first time for me.

In which case you have company.

I would have assumed too that there were still possibilities to stop Sauron, or at least make it a lot more difficult for him. But we seem only to have Tolkien's word for it, that Aldarion was too late.

Quote:

Well, I've never heard of it before - but then, that doesn't mean anything. But yeah, it seems to be one of those old-fashioned words that noone uses any more.

Ah, right. I better won't be using it in modern conversation then.

Quote:

(BTW, how did you get that acent over the 'u'?)

I have a Belgian keyboard, which has to be able to type in French as well, so I have a truck-load of accents just a few strokes away.

Quote:

Fanfiction for the win! Seriously, I don't know if Tolkien could have written a muder story that was any good.

I tend to agree. He didn't seem interested in writing his abandonned sequal to LoTR any further than the first chapter since it was turning into a thriller. I assume murder stories didn't interest him equally.

Quote:

Well, I have to say, it's a good thing that I replied to your questions, otherwise, this thread would totally be dead right about now.

For which I am grateful. Sadly, the UT discussion isn't attracting as much attention as I would have liked, if any even.

Midge · 05-07-2010, 10:56 AM

*Oh, SNAP* I just finished this chapter and didn't even realize I could join the discussion!

1. Who do you think was eventually a better King, Meneldur who looked no further than the borders of NÃ¹menor but who managed his land and affairs well? Or Aldarion who spent as much time overseas as he did in NÃºmenor but whose help and endeavours were much appreciated by Gil-galad in the fight against the rising Sauron, even though much of his efforts went to naught?

Throughout the entire story, I kept thinking, "Geez... if only Aldarion could be like his dad..." Meneldur had a much better character, IMO. At the end, when he read the letter and realized what had been going on for so long, he didn't try to take glory for himself by being king and saving the world. He realized that he didn't have a clue what to do, so he gave the kingship to someone who would know what to do. It seemed like Aldarion and Ancalime were rather petty. Sure, they were great, but they spent a lot of their time spiting people and being generally depressants to their people. All in all, I LIKED Meneldur better.

Also, it says in the beginning of that chapter that during his kingship Meneldur always yearned for days in which he could enrich his knowledge of the heavens better, but while he was King, it never says he did. He mastered his yearning, while Aldarion had problems with that.

2. For all Aldarionâ€™s taste for sea-voyages, he did not once look to travel west. Why? Was this the injunction of the Valar at work, then why did he not rebel against it, as he did against any order that barred his path?

During Aldarion's day, they had visitors from the West come to them. I don't remember if it said that they had visitors from Middle-Earth. I kind of thought there was a distance barrier that Veantur broke by going there for the first time - Middle Earth-ians couldn't come to Numenor, and Numenoreans couldn't come to Middle-Earth until that time, so they were more curious about the East.

More later...

Voronwen · 05-07-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

1. Who do you think was eventually a better King, Meneldur who looked no further than the borders of NÃ¹menor but who managed his land and affairs well? Or Aldarion who spent as much time overseas as he did in NÃºmenor but whose help and endeavours were much appreciated by Gil-galad in the fight against the rising Sauron, even though much of his efforts went to naught?

This is a tough call, though i would have to say, Melendur. While much of what Aldarion achieved did set the stage for future events, he could have done that without being quite so far-reaching and ambitious. Perhaps then, his country, and his marriage, may not have suffered from neglect. However, Meneldur had his weaknesses too, in that he didn't really do enough, but at least he held with tradition.

Quote:

2. For all Aldarionâ€™s taste for sea-voyages, he did not once look to travel west. Why? Was this the injunction of the Valar at work, then why did he not rebel against it, as he did against any order that barred his path?

It is surprising that he didn't go against the ban. Perhaps 'faith' in those days was a lot stronger still, and therefore, it was simply unthinkable.

Quote:

3. The ships of NÃºmenor continued to sail under the assumed protection of the Valar, and Uinen was held in high esteem but do you think the Valar actually influenced any event in the story of Aldarion and Erendis? If so, what?

The Valar certainly had a difficult situation to work through, with the strong wills of these two characters messing things up!

Quote:

4. Did Aldarion really love the sea, or did he see it more as something to conquer, a method merely than a reason to do his own thing and not be beholden to anyone?

He was all about conquering, and wanderlust, it would seem.

Quote:

5. Was the fact that Erendis came from the Line of BÃ«or (and therefore had a shorter lifespan) an important factor in the rift between her and Aldarion? Do you think they could have overcome this if they had tried?

Of course they could have. But as with all such things, both parties have to be willing. Aldarion's neglect, coupled with Erendis' sour attitude, definitely didn't make for a high probability of reconciliation.

Quote:

6. Aldarion increasingly ran into unfavourable currents and bad weather as he continued to journey away from NÃºmenor. His works on the Middle-earth continent continually suffered set-backs, ruin and attacks. Was this a sign of the displeasure of the Valar for disobeying his father? If so they succeeded only in keeping Aldarion longer away from home. But as is later revealed in the story, Aldarion did provide worthwile aid to Gil-galad, even as his own projects continued to fail. May this actually have been the intent all along?

I doubt that was his original intent, though perhaps it was the intent of the Valar, or even more believable would be that it was the Valar making lemonade out of lemons, so to speak...

Quote:

7. Tolkien writes: â€œFor Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of NÃºmenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion.â€ Would you agree with this assessment of Aldarionâ€™s character?

Absolutely. It was with Aldarion that the over-ambition of the kings, which led to the unfortunate choices of Ar-Pharazon, began, IMHO.

Quote:

8. When Erendisâ€™ parents see that Erendis has sent off the birds, NÃºneth says a curious thing: â€œAnd may the Valar send her wisdom â€“ or guile, at the least!â€ Why would she want Erendis to have guile? Why would Erendis need to deceive Aldarion upon his return?

The prayer for wisdom is certainly appropriate! "Guile" is an afterthought that perhaps shows an aspect of human nature's falibility on the female side, where Aldarion's wanderlust and over-achievement shows an aspect of human nature's falibility on the male side. (I realize this is very stereotypical, but considering the time when this was written, not all that surprising).

Quote:

9. It is curious to see that Gil-Galad appears to have a better relationship with Aldarion than Aldarion has with his father. Would this be because Aldarionâ€™s travels fitted well into Gil-Galadâ€™s efforts and there was less friction between their own goals? Or did Aldarion just find it easier to share what was on his mind with one of the Eldar than one of his own people?

Perhaps he found a certain unbiased calm in speaking with an Elf, one who had just enough of an interest and relationship with the Numenoreans to know what was going on, but just removed enough from the situation to remain cool and impart wisdom.

Quote:

10. If Erendis had gone with AncalimÃ« back to Armenelos when Tar-Meneldur asked her to, would this have had any influence of the rift between her and Aldarion, who would now be king?

I believe so. She would have had more varied influences from her older family members, maybe especially her grandfather, who may have modelled for her a far different personality from her father's. This may have opened her mind to accept that not all men were like her father.

Quote:

11. What do you think happened when Erendis at last sought out Aldarion again, when the records only mention: â€œErendis perished in water in the year 985.â€ Do you think Aldarion had a hand in it?

I always read this as if she had tried to follow him, somehow, and it didn't work out. Perhaps it was one of the first times that a Numenorean ship failed - after all, the shadow was already stirring, and the heyday of peace was already coming to an end.

All that said, i never cared much for Aldarion, as i'm sure many of my answers reveal. Nor Erendis, for that matter. I think the way Ancalime turned out was an unfortunate 'casualty of war', so to speak. But the story as a whole sets the stage for later events which came about because of rebellion and the falibility of human nature.

In my opinion, they all would have done better to look to their elders and tradition as a model to live by. But that's just my 'Faithful' sensibilities talking.

Keith K · 05-12-2010, 03:41 PM

I think that Aldarian was the better king as he looked to new ways and ideas. Tradition is good for stagnation and rot if you refuse to look outward. For kings of men, anyway. Elvin kings were probably better suited for keeping traditions what with their long life and all.

Gordis · 05-13-2010, 11:12 AM

Excellent summary, Earniel! And very good, insightful discussion. Sorry I am joining in so late…

1. Who do you think was eventually a better King, Meneldur who looked no further than the borders of NÃ¹menor but who managed his land and affairs well? Or Aldarion who spent as much time overseas as he did in NÃºmenor but whose help and endeavours were much appreciated by Gil-galad in the fight against the rising Sauron, even though much of his efforts went to naught?
I agree 100% with Keith K. Stagnation is never good for Men.

There were actually two main kinds of Numenorean kings:
A. Quiet, wise, studious ones with zero hubris just by nature. In Elros's line such guys happen occasionally: Vardamir Nolimon, Aldarion's father Tar-Meneldur, maybe also Tar-Minastir. They must be quite nice to have around, and they make decent Kings in time of peace. But progress with them is impossible.
B. Their more warlike, adventurous, proud and power-hungry relatives (Elros himself, Tar-Aldarion, Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir, Isildur etc.). I wouldn't call the latter variety flawed: it is just another temperament. And yes, because of it they make far greater Kings!

2. For all Aldarion’s taste for sea-voyages, he did not once look to travel west. Why? Was this the injunction of the Valar at work, then why did he not rebel against it, as he did against any order that barred his path?
It was simply because in Aldarion's time the realm of the Unknown, adventures and opportunities lay to the East, not to the West. When all the coasts of ME had been explored, Gates of Morning found, all the seaways trodden, only then the Mariners turned their (first yearning then greedy) gaze West.
3. The ships of NÃºmenor continued to sail under the assumed protection of the Valar, and Uinen was held in high esteem but do you think the Valar actually influenced any event in the story of Aldarion and Erendis? If so, what?
I don't think the Valar paid Numenoreans any attention before the disquieting reports of the Rebellion started coming in from Elves. But that happened more than a millennium later.
As for Uinen… the Maia naturally favored Numenorean mariners, the Uinendili - especially those who carried a green bought of oiolairÃ« in her honor and she restrained the temper of her husband OssÃ«. Not a single (!) Numenorean ship sank in all the three thousand years before Sauron became the King's counselor: " But all this was now changed; for the sky itself was darkened, and there were storms of rain and hail in those days, and violent winds; and ever and anon a great ship of the NÃºmenÃ³reans would founder and return not to haven, though such a grief had not till then befallen them since the rising of the Star."- AKALLABÃŠTH.*
*That's why I don't believe that Erendis may have died in a shipwreck (see question 11).

4. Did Aldarion really love the sea, or did he see it more as something to conquer, a method merely than a reason to do his own thing and not be beholden to anyone?
I believe Aldarion truly had an overwhelming sea-longing and desire to explore the unknown… The second reason (to do his own thing) also played a part, but secondary. He didn't stop his voyages after becoming King, when he could do as he pleased while staying at home.

5. Was the fact that Erendis came from the Line of BÃ«or (and therefore had a shorter lifespan) an important factor in the rift between her and Aldarion? Do you think they could have overcome this if they had tried?
It played its part as an argument to force Aldarion to marry sooner when, in truth, he wasn't psychologically ready for it. It would have been far better for him to wait another hundred years, sate his sea-longing a bit, and find a better bride.

6. Aldarion increasingly ran into unfavourable currents and bad weather as he continued to journey away from NÃºmenor. His works on the Middle-earth continent continually suffered set-backs, ruin and attacks. Was this a sign of the displeasure of the Valar for disobeying his father? If so they succeeded only in keeping Aldarion longer away from home. But as is later revealed in the story, Aldarion did provide worthwile aid to Gil-galad, even as his own projects continued to fail. May this actually have been the intent all along?
I don't see any divine providence in this at all. Yes, bad weather awaits those who didn't please Osse and Uinen, setting out without oiolairÃ«, but also some storms and setbacks happen now and then to everyone. All-in-all Aldarion's voyages to the uncharted lands went surprisingly smoothly, if we compare them to perils and many casualties of Columbus, Vasco-da-Gama, Magellan etc.
What aid could Aldarion give to Gil-Galad seems quite unclear to me. What indeed did the Elf want? Nobody attacked the Elves, as far as we know. Or did Gil-Galad also have problems with the "wild" Men of ME?

7. Tolkien writes: “For Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of NÃºmenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion.” Would you agree with this assessment of Aldarion’s character?
Spot-on.

8. When Erendis’ parents see that Erendis has sent off the birds, NÃºneth says a curious thing: “And may the Valar send her wisdom – or guile, at the least!” Why would she want Erendis to have guile? Why would Erendis need to deceive Aldarion upon his return?
This is perhaps the most insightful question of all.

Guile is not such bad thing. "Sauron was ever guileful..-Silm" And look how brilliantly he has dealt with both Elves and Men back in the SA. Guile is necessary for the one who is objectively weaker; it gives enormous advantages over a head-on approach. Fingolfin charged Morgoth head-on and died a horrible death gaining nothing but some moral satisfaction

, while Beren and Luthien used a lot of guile and succeeded.
Neither Erendis, nor Aldarion had an ounce of guile, no cunning or subtlety, so their conflict was a head-on collision, utterly unresolvable, unless one of them backs off and submits (which neither of them, of course, was willing to do).
Now, back to NÃºneth's words. It was clear to her mother that Erendis totally lacked wisdom: she would never accept her situation gracefully, she would never stop fretting and enjoy all the pleasures of being a queen. No, the fool wanted Aldarion as her lap-dog which was simply not happening. But some guile could have helped her a lot! If she at least pretended to surrender, returned home, tried to be nice and loving with Aldarion, bore him sons, THAT could give him some real reasons to stay, could make him desire to stay… If she tried hard enough in this guileful way, these womanly wiles and apparent submission could maybe get her almost what she wanted.

9. It is curious to see that Gil-Galad appears to have a better relationship with Aldarion than Aldarion has with his father. Would this be because Aldarion’s travels fitted well into Gil-Galad’s efforts and there was less friction between their own goals? Or did Aldarion just find it easier to share what was on his mind with one of the Eldar than one of his own people? Unlike Meneldur, Gil-Galad only profited from Aldarion's visits: so why not like him? I think in the FA the Elves grew used to having Edain at their beck and call, so with the relocation of Men to Numenor the Elves probably felt abandoned and were glad to return to the original layout…

10. If Erendis had gone with AncalimÃ« back to Armenelos when Tar-Meneldur asked her to, would this have had any influence of the rift between her and Aldarion, who would now be king?
No doubt about it. That's exactly why she didn't go.

You see, Aldarion still had no Heir according to the Law of the time, so everyone around would be nagging at him to reconcile with his wife and produce at last a Heir. That was Erendis' biggest trump card: a King MUST have a Heir, and Aldarion had none. She hoped that the heirless King would crawl back to her begging for forgiveness, but instead the proud King changed the Law in favor of his daughter. It was the last blow to Erendis and the end of all her hopes. She also lost her daughter this way.

11. What do you think happened when Erendis at last sought out Aldarion again, when the records only mention: “Erendis perished in water in the year 985.” Do you think Aldarion had a hand in it?
I think she committed suicide when she learned of the change of the Law (see above). Why die by drowning? To spite her husband, of course.

Aldarion should have murdered her back in 883 and taken a new wife - that was exactly what she deserved and he was still young enough to get sons. After the change of the Law he had no reasons to kill Erendis - he just forgot about her.

04-26-2010, 10:07 AM	#1
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	UT Discussion - Aldarion and Erendis SUMMARY Aldarion's Youth We’re in NÃºmenor, under the reign of Tar-Elendil. Eventually he will relinquish his sceptre to his son Meneldur who will be King for the most part of this story. Tar-Meneldur is considered a gentle soul with a great interest in stargazing and understanding the heavens; a hobby he had to let go to move to Armenelos, the city of Kings, where he would have to turn his mind to the more terrestrial activities of Kingship. His son Anardil was also a man of great interests, but one seemingly more inclined to pursue these passions rather than Kingship he was to inherit. Aldarion, as he was later known, had inherited a love for the sea from his maternal grandfather VÃ«antur, and this love was further nurtured by a two year-long voyage when he was 25. Afterwards, Aldarion started to go on more voyages, exploring the coasts of Middle-earth, making at least four great voyages before he turned forty. This guy was a traveller all right. Occasionally Aldarion could be gently persuaded to linger at home, such as when his father received the sceptre from Tar-Elendil. But Aldarion’s mind was still on ships, even when he was on dry land. He turned his mind to improving the harbours so he could envision and build larger and larger ships and even prepare for multi-vessel journeys. For this he formed the Guild of Venturers. And eventually he even built himself a boat to live on so he wouldn't have to live on land. All this did not sit very well with Tar-Meneldur who did not see the merit in these exploits, but as the Queen still supported her son in everything he did, the King mostly let it pass. But he opposed Aldarion indirectly where he could, such as by setting a curb on the felling of trees for ship-building. This only drove Aldarion on more journeys to seek timber elsewhere. He turned to Middle-earth and founded the harbour VinyalondÃ«. The King's Heir The dispute between the King and his son was only brought to rest when Aldarion was proclaimed the King’s Heir. With such a proclamation, a feast was necessarily in order. And it was on this feast that Erendis, a beautiful woman of the Line or BÃ«or, first entered in the story. Erendis noticed Aldarion, and apparently like what she saw, even though we do not know whether Aldarion had similar ideas at the time. But if he didn't, the Queen Almarian certainly was going to make sure he would, by having Erendis join her household. Aldarion’s mind was not yet on marriage -despite suggestions of the King in that direction- and soon afterwards he took to sea again. But not before seeing Erendis. Nevertheless, the lass would have to wait another seven years before they actually would get to meet again. While Aldarion continued to go on voyages, his father continued to try and keep his son at home, by denying the women of his household to bring Aldarion a Green Bough. This Green Bough was a branch cut from a ever-green tree named oilolairÃ«. This branch was then set upon a vessel’s prow on its departure, in a custom the NÃºmenoreans had taken from the Eldar. Erendis twice helped Aldarion acquire a Green Bough in subterfuge. This move appeared to endear her to him as he returned to NÃºmenor earlier than he had planned Ãnd with a pricely gift for Erendis. But eventually Aldarion would set sail in open rebellion against the King’s wishes and in turn Meneldur took counter-measures such as taking away Aldarion’s authority as Lord of the Ships and Havens. Aldarion was not a happy camper when he found this out upon his return and he quickly took to sea again. He took a full 14 years before coming back, during which Erendis decided to return home. This journey was far from easy and for once Aldarion seemed happy to be home and was even reconciled with the King. He decided not seek out Erendis, but by chance he met her in the forests of the Westlands and finally started to woo her in earnest. This time it was Erendis who's holding back, as she could not help but noticing the differences between them. Wood against sea. Erendis’ reluctance did not seem to engender much sympathy. Her mother NÃºneth rebuked her for wanting everything or nothing, and that was high time she saw some grandchildren. Despite Erendis not minding her mother’s advice, she and Aldarion did find themselves bethrothed at the ErukyermÃ« festival later that year. Finally Married* But good times don’t last and Aldarion started getting antsy again. He tried to get Erendis to come with him, but she declined so he went again alone. His journey was beset by difficulties but Erendis welcomed him courteously and they managed to tie the knot the following year. Even the Eldar came over to join the party and gave Aldarion a white tree and Erendis a pair of birds. Here it became obvious, that despite of having received the name Aldarion, the King’s Heir still thought of trees as material only. He even prized the gifted tree for its wood after which the Elves said they wouldn’t know, since they don’t fell these trees because they preferred the leaves and flowers rather than just the wood. Two years later AncalimÃ«, Aldarion's and Erendis' only daughter, was born. This was the height of their marital bliss, and it only went downward from here. When AncalimÃ« was but four years old, off he went again. This parting caused a significant souring in the marriage and Erendis relocated to EmeriÃ«, as far from the sea as she could and she dismissed the birds the Eldar had given her, while Aldarion stayed away far longer than he had promised her. And so AncalimÃ« grew up in a household of women only, and was taught and instructed by an embittered Erendis. Upon his return Aldarion found his house empty, and his welcome cold. He left his father with a letter from Gil-galad and travelled to EmeriÃ« where his welcome was possibly even frostier. But he did little to address it and left again early the following day. Before he left, he demanded to see AncalimÃ«, and content to see his daughter had a mind like his own, he commanded her to come to the palace in Armenelos so she would receive a proper training as it was becoming obvious he would not have another heir besides her. Meanwhile Meneldur read Gil-Galad’s letter and was greatly disturbed. The letter, while praising Aldarion greatly, also spoke of a rising shadow and the prospects of a new war. Meneldur found himself unable to choose a proper path for NÃºmenor and left the sceptre to Aldarion. This, naturally pleased Aldarion, who even as King continued to go on voyages when he desired to do so. AncalimÃ« AncalimÃ« grew up to a perfect mix of her parents and seemingly more a child of their dispute than of their marriage for she appeared to delight in opposing and vexing the both of them, at the same time if she could. Nevertheless, Aldarion changed the law so that she could become the first Ruling Queen of NÃºmenor. He also decreed that the King’s Heir should only marry within the Line of Elros, in a apparent effort to saveguard future royal marriages from a similar breakdown as his own. AncalimÃ«’s life afterwards cannot be called a happy one. Her own marriage started in deceit, as the shepherd she loved when living under cover in EmeriÃ«, turned out to be Hallacar, son of Hallatan, also of the Line of Elros who had assumed the guise of a shepherd to meet her. Eventually they were married. Many reasons could be found for this marriage, but love did not appear to have been among them. Indeed, it seemed the Royal family for two more generations nigh descended into inter-family warfare, with Tar-AncalimÃ« trying to dictate life and marriage of her family-members down to her granddaughters. I take it it was a happy day for the Royal Family when Tar-AncalimÃ« breathed her last. A bitter end for a story that started so promising. ALDARION's VOYAGES: I wanted to see just how many years Aldarion spent away from home since he took up travelling, until he became King. He didn't stop travelling when he did ascend the throne, but it becomes unclear from that time on when and how long he remains at sea. NÃšMENOR[......................................]AWAY AT SEA 25 years (early youth) [.................................................. .]2 years 3 years [.................................................. .]3 years less than 2 years [.................................................. .]4 years [...............]several unspecified voyages over a period of 60 years 6 years [.................................................. .]7 years unspecified number of years by counting back I estimate: about 7 years [.................................................. .]unspecified but he returns earlier than intended, [.................................................. .]perhaps 1-2 years? unspecified number of years by counting back I estimate: about 7 years [.................................................. .]5 years less than 1 year [.................................................. .]14 years 18 years [.................................................. .]6 years 8 years (including marriage) [.................................................. .]5 years QUESTIONS 1. Who do you think was eventually a better King, Meneldur who looked no further than the borders of NÃ¹menor but who managed his land and affairs well? Or Aldarion who spent as much time overseas as he did in NÃºmenor but whose help and endeavours were much appreciated by Gil-galad in the fight against the rising Sauron, even though much of his efforts went to naught? 2. For all Aldarion’s taste for sea-voyages, he did not once look to travel west. Why? Was this the injunction of the Valar at work, then why did he not rebel against it, as he did against any order that barred his path? 3. The ships of NÃºmenor continued to sail under the assumed protection of the Valar, and Uinen was held in high esteem but do you think the Valar actually influenced any event in the story of Aldarion and Erendis? If so, what? 4. Did Aldarion really love the sea, or did he see it more as something to conquer, a method merely than a reason to do his own thing and not be beholden to anyone? 5. Was the fact that Erendis came from the Line of BÃ«or (and therefore had a shorter lifespan) an important factor in the rift between her and Aldarion? Do you think they could have overcome this if they had tried? 6. Aldarion increasingly ran into unfavourable currents and bad weather as he continued to journey away from NÃºmenor. His works on the Middle-earth continent continually suffered set-backs, ruin and attacks. Was this a sign of the displeasure of the Valar for disobeying his father? If so they succeeded only in keeping Aldarion longer away from home. But as is later revealed in the story, Aldarion did provide worthwile aid to Gil-galad, even as his own projects continued to fail. May this actually have been the intent all along? 7. Tolkien writes: “For Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of NÃºmenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion.” Would you agree with this assessment of Aldarion’s character? 8. When Erendis’ parents see that Erendis has sent off the birds, NÃºneth says a curious thing: “And may the Valar send her wisdom – or guile, at the least!” Why would she want Erendis to have guile? Why would Erendis need to deceive Aldarion upon his return? 9. It is curious to see that Gil-Galad appears to have a better relationship with Aldarion than Aldarion has with his father. Would this be because Aldarion’s travels fitted well into Gil-Galad’s efforts and there was less friction between their own goals? Or did Aldarion just find it easier to share what was on his mind with one of the Eldar than one of his own people? 10. If Erendis had gone with AncalimÃ« back to Armenelos when Tar-Meneldur asked her to, would this have had any influence of the rift between her and Aldarion, who would now be king? 11. What do you think happened when Erendis at last sought out Aldarion again, when the records only mention: “Erendis perished in water in the year 985.” Do you think Aldarion had a hand in it? __________________ We are not things.

04-27-2010, 05:09 PM	#3
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	1) I think that Aldarion was the better king, if only because he kept in contact with the elves, Numenors allies (at least at the time), and that allowed them to hold back Saurons power at the later date. 2) I think because at the time, the Numenorians still respected the Valar and appreciated at what they had done at the end of the First Age. It isn't until 1300 years later that the Numenorians became at least openly hostile towards the Valar. Even Aldarion isn't that stupid, no matter however many other mistakes he might have made. 3) No, I don't see them influencing anything, at least in terms of Aldarion and Erendis' relationship with each other. If they did want to help out (or influence, however you want to put it) why not when Sauron was fighting against Men and Elves in the 1600's? They didn't, which suggests that they wouldn't bother with something like this. Although, check out 6). 4) I think that, even if it was a challange to conqure the sea in the beginning, it wasn't when he grew older, and used it as a means of escape from the troubles of his wife and father. 5) I don't think lifespan had anything to do with it - I think it was more to do with their clashing personalities. He wanted to keep exploring, whilst she just wanted him to be a damn husband and father with some kind of, you know, presence in her life, and that of her daughter. Especially since he was going to be king reletivly soon as well. 6) In this case, it looks to be part of the "greater good". Sure, the guy will have bad luck and bad relationships and whatnot, but if that means that Middle Earth won't go into deep sht, then that's a reasonable price to pay. So, maybe the Valar did help out, just indirectly. 7) Doesn't every monarchy want even a little bit more land? I mean, that's how we got the British Empire, Roman Empire etc in the Real World, even if wanting more land isn't the primary reason. 8) Simply because I didn't know what guile meant, here's a definition for those who are confused: â€“noun insidious cunning in attaining a goal; crafty or artful deception; duplicity.* *c.1150, from O.Fr. guile, from Frank. wigila "trick, ruse"** (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guile) So, basically, I guess NÃºneth is saying that is possible (in her mind at least, even if not that of the general population) for someone to gain the powers of dishonesty. Which, lets face it, is total noncence. Just because someone hasn't shown guile before, doesn't mean that they've never not had it (if that makes any sense at all ). Or maybe she just wants to support her daughter in getting rid of him, and by having guile, Erendis can think up the most hurtful way to do it. And I agree, I can't see any reason why Erendis would want to decieve her husband, especially if she's just going to leave him anyway. Unless she wants to mentally slap him for all the inconvieniance and trouble he's caused her. 9) Personally, I think the first option is the most likely one, at least at first. Once the two became most then just two leaders fighting a common enemy, then I can see Aldarion talking to Gil-Galad about his problems. I mean, who else would he be able to talk to, and who else could he trust not to spread the word around? 10) No, definatly not. I think that the rift between the two of them had gone on for far, far too long by that point of time, and a trip to the capital city wouldn't have done anything to improve relations - in fact, it might have made them worse. 11) I think that she simply drowned, whether accidently or delibertly. Personally, I think that Aldarion did have a hand in it, if only because having her killed would mean that he has one less problem to worry about during his rule. ------------------- Anyways, I'm just sad that this is the only properly formed story from the Second Age that Tolkien ever wrote, rather then merely notes. But then, I suppose that's what fanfiction's for, isn't it? __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

05-07-2010, 10:56 AM	#7
Midge Faithful Gardener Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: I walk here and there, they say... Posts: 3,603	Oh, SNAP I just finished this chapter and didn't even realize I could join the discussion! 1. Who do you think was eventually a better King, Meneldur who looked no further than the borders of NÃ¹menor but who managed his land and affairs well? Or Aldarion who spent as much time overseas as he did in NÃºmenor but whose help and endeavours were much appreciated by Gil-galad in the fight against the rising Sauron, even though much of his efforts went to naught? Throughout the entire story, I kept thinking, "Geez... if only Aldarion could be like his dad..." Meneldur had a much better character, IMO. At the end, when he read the letter and realized what had been going on for so long, he didn't try to take glory for himself by being king and saving the world. He realized that he didn't have a clue what to do, so he gave the kingship to someone who would know what to do. It seemed like Aldarion and Ancalime were rather petty. Sure, they were great, but they spent a lot of their time spiting people and being generally depressants to their people. All in all, I LIKED Meneldur better. Also, it says in the beginning of that chapter that during his kingship Meneldur always yearned for days in which he could enrich his knowledge of the heavens better, but while he was King, it never says he did. He mastered his yearning, while Aldarion had problems with that. 2. For all Aldarionâ€™s taste for sea-voyages, he did not once look to travel west. Why? Was this the injunction of the Valar at work, then why did he not rebel against it, as he did against any order that barred his path? During Aldarion's day, they had visitors from the West come to them. I don't remember if it said that they had visitors from Middle-Earth. I kind of thought there was a distance barrier that Veantur broke by going there for the first time - Middle Earth-ians couldn't come to Numenor, and Numenoreans couldn't come to Middle-Earth until that time, so they were more curious about the East. More later... __________________ In God I trust, I will not be afraid. What can man do to me? Psalm 56:11 "Starbuck, what do you hear?" "Nothin' but the rain, sir!" "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat." Make sure to check out the C.S. Lewis forum. Game threads, movie and book discussions and more!

05-13-2010, 11:12 AM	#10
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Excellent summary, Earniel! And very good, insightful discussion. Sorry I am joining in so late… 1. Who do you think was eventually a better King, Meneldur who looked no further than the borders of NÃ¹menor but who managed his land and affairs well? Or Aldarion who spent as much time overseas as he did in NÃºmenor but whose help and endeavours were much appreciated by Gil-galad in the fight against the rising Sauron, even though much of his efforts went to naught? I agree 100% with Keith K. Stagnation is never good for Men. There were actually two main kinds of Numenorean kings: A. Quiet, wise, studious ones with zero hubris just by nature. In Elros's line such guys happen occasionally: Vardamir Nolimon, Aldarion's father Tar-Meneldur, maybe also Tar-Minastir. They must be quite nice to have around, and they make decent Kings in time of peace. But progress with them is impossible. B. Their more warlike, adventurous, proud and power-hungry relatives (Elros himself, Tar-Aldarion, Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir, Isildur etc.). I wouldn't call the latter variety flawed: it is just another temperament. And yes, because of it they make far greater Kings! 2. For all Aldarion’s taste for sea-voyages, he did not once look to travel west. Why? Was this the injunction of the Valar at work, then why did he not rebel against it, as he did against any order that barred his path? It was simply because in Aldarion's time the realm of the Unknown, adventures and opportunities lay to the East, not to the West. When all the coasts of ME had been explored, Gates of Morning found, all the seaways trodden, only then the Mariners turned their (first yearning then greedy) gaze West. 3. The ships of NÃºmenor continued to sail under the assumed protection of the Valar, and Uinen was held in high esteem but do you think the Valar actually influenced any event in the story of Aldarion and Erendis? If so, what? I don't think the Valar paid Numenoreans any attention before the disquieting reports of the Rebellion started coming in from Elves. But that happened more than a millennium later. As for Uinen… the Maia naturally favored Numenorean mariners, the Uinendili - especially those who carried a green bought of oiolairÃ« in her honor and she restrained the temper of her husband OssÃ«. Not a single (!) Numenorean ship sank in all the three thousand years before Sauron became the King's counselor: " But all this was now changed; for the sky itself was darkened, and there were storms of rain and hail in those days, and violent winds; and ever and anon a great ship of the NÃºmenÃ³reans would founder and return not to haven, though such a grief had not till then befallen them since the rising of the Star."- AKALLABÃŠTH.* That's why I don't believe that Erendis may have died in a shipwreck (see question 11). 4. Did Aldarion really love the sea, or did he see it more as something to conquer, a method merely than a reason to do his own thing and not be beholden to anyone?* I believe Aldarion truly had an overwhelming sea-longing and desire to explore the unknown… The second reason (to do his own thing) also played a part, but secondary. He didn't stop his voyages after becoming King, when he could do as he pleased while staying at home. 5. Was the fact that Erendis came from the Line of BÃ«or (and therefore had a shorter lifespan) an important factor in the rift between her and Aldarion? Do you think they could have overcome this if they had tried? It played its part as an argument to force Aldarion to marry sooner when, in truth, he wasn't psychologically ready for it. It would have been far better for him to wait another hundred years, sate his sea-longing a bit, and find a better bride. 6. Aldarion increasingly ran into unfavourable currents and bad weather as he continued to journey away from NÃºmenor. His works on the Middle-earth continent continually suffered set-backs, ruin and attacks. Was this a sign of the displeasure of the Valar for disobeying his father? If so they succeeded only in keeping Aldarion longer away from home. But as is later revealed in the story, Aldarion did provide worthwile aid to Gil-galad, even as his own projects continued to fail. May this actually have been the intent all along? I don't see any divine providence in this at all. Yes, bad weather awaits those who didn't please Osse and Uinen, setting out without oiolairÃ«, but also some storms and setbacks happen now and then to everyone. All-in-all Aldarion's voyages to the uncharted lands went surprisingly smoothly, if we compare them to perils and many casualties of Columbus, Vasco-da-Gama, Magellan etc. What aid could Aldarion give to Gil-Galad seems quite unclear to me. What indeed did the Elf want? Nobody attacked the Elves, as far as we know. Or did Gil-Galad also have problems with the "wild" Men of ME? 7. Tolkien writes: “For Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of NÃºmenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion.” Would you agree with this assessment of Aldarion’s character? Spot-on. 8. When Erendis’ parents see that Erendis has sent off the birds, NÃºneth says a curious thing: “And may the Valar send her wisdom – or guile, at the least!” Why would she want Erendis to have guile? Why would Erendis need to deceive Aldarion upon his return? This is perhaps the most insightful question of all. Guile is not such bad thing. "Sauron was ever guileful..-Silm" And look how brilliantly he has dealt with both Elves and Men back in the SA. Guile is necessary for the one who is objectively weaker; it gives enormous advantages over a head-on approach. Fingolfin charged Morgoth head-on and died a horrible death gaining nothing but some moral satisfaction, while Beren and Luthien used a lot of guile and succeeded. Neither Erendis, nor Aldarion had an ounce of guile, no cunning or subtlety, so their conflict was a head-on collision, utterly unresolvable, unless one of them backs off and submits (which neither of them, of course, was willing to do). Now, back to NÃºneth's words. It was clear to her mother that Erendis totally lacked wisdom: she would never accept her situation gracefully, she would never stop fretting and enjoy all the pleasures of being a queen. No, the fool wanted Aldarion as her lap-dog which was simply not happening. But some guile could have helped her a lot! If she at least pretended to surrender, returned home, tried to be nice and loving with Aldarion, bore him sons, THAT could give him some real reasons to stay, could make him desire to stay… If she tried hard enough in this guileful way, these womanly wiles and apparent submission could maybe get her almost what she wanted. 9. It is curious to see that Gil-Galad appears to have a better relationship with Aldarion than Aldarion has with his father. Would this be because Aldarion’s travels fitted well into Gil-Galad’s efforts and there was less friction between their own goals? Or did Aldarion just find it easier to share what was on his mind with one of the Eldar than one of his own people? Unlike Meneldur, Gil-Galad only profited from Aldarion's visits: so why not like him? I think in the FA the Elves grew used to having Edain at their beck and call, so with the relocation of Men to Numenor the Elves probably felt abandoned and were glad to return to the original layout… 10. If Erendis had gone with AncalimÃ« back to Armenelos when Tar-Meneldur asked her to, would this have had any influence of the rift between her and Aldarion, who would now be king? No doubt about it. That's exactly why she didn't go. You see, Aldarion still had no Heir according to the Law of the time, so everyone around would be nagging at him to reconcile with his wife and produce at last a Heir. That was Erendis' biggest trump card: a King MUST have a Heir, and Aldarion had none. She hoped that the heirless King would crawl back to her begging for forgiveness, but instead the proud King changed the Law in favor of his daughter. It was the last blow to Erendis and the end of all her hopes. She also lost her daughter this way. 11. What do you think happened when Erendis at last sought out Aldarion again, when the records only mention: “Erendis perished in water in the year 985.” Do you think Aldarion had a hand in it? I think she committed suicide when she learned of the change of the Law (see above). Why die by drowning? To spite her husband, of course. Aldarion should have murdered her back in 883 and taken a new wife - that was exactly what she deserved and he was still young enough to get sons. After the change of the Law he had no reasons to kill Erendis - he just forgot about her. Last edited by Gordis : 05-13-2010 at 11:16 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Unfinished Tales Discussion Project	Earniel	Middle Earth	95	12-17-2011 08:23 AM
Aldarion and Erendis (UT) revisited	Gordis	Middle Earth	20	07-01-2009 09:28 PM
Aldarion and Erendis	Artanis	Middle Earth	80	03-21-2003 12:57 PM

04-26-2010, 05:21 PM	#2
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	The author did like his irony, having Erendis die in water. I would have had a tree fall on her head.

05-12-2010, 03:41 PM	#9
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	I think that Aldarian was the better king as he looked to new ways and ideas. Tradition is good for stagnation and rot if you refuse to look outward. For kings of men, anyway. Elvin kings were probably better suited for keeping traditions what with their long life and all.