Proof: Tolkien's world is real

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-27-2004, 02:30 PM

Actually, I just thought this was an interesting article.

"Hobbit" Discovered: Tiny Human Ancestor Found in Asia

Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News
October 27, 2004

Scientists have found fossil skeletons of a hobbit-like species of human that grew no larger than a three-year-old modern child. The tiny humans, who had skulls about the size of grapefruits, lived with pygmy elephants and Komodo dragons on a remote island in Indonesia as recently as 13,000 years ago.
Australian and Indonesian researchers discovered bones of the miniature humans in a cave on Flores, an island midway between Asia and Australia.

Scientists have determined that the first skeleton they found belongs to a species of human completely new to science. Named Homo floresiensis, after the island on which it was found, the tiny human has also been dubbed by dig workers as the "hobbit," after the tiny creatures from the Lord of the Rings books.

The original skeleton, a female, stood at just 1 meter (3.3 feet) tall, weighed about 25 kilograms (55 pounds), and was around 30 years old at the time of her death.

Read the full story

>>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...nsis.html#main

**Nurvingiel** · 10-27-2004, 02:35 PM

Shouldn't that be Homo hobbitus? Homo shireus? Homo elevensiens? ...

Now we just have to find the ruins of Barad-dur... and some elf and dwarf skeletons and we're all set!

Seriously though, that's a very cool article.

BeardofPants · 10-27-2004, 03:49 PM

That is way cool, though of course it isn't the first example of tiny hominids. One only has to look further back in the fossil record to find tiny hominids, both the australopithecines, and the genus homo.

inked · 10-27-2004, 04:29 PM

BoP,

yes, well, aren't you really desirous of their pants status?

***Tessar*** · 10-27-2004, 11:22 PM

Awwwwww! So tiny, yet do deadly

.

Or something like that. Yea... yea... Frodo Lives and all that. Lived, rather.

Count Comfect · 10-27-2004, 11:27 PM

Frodo Evolved!

That's way smaller than any other species. Even our australopithecine ancestors are larger. My anthropology teacher was emailed us all in a fluster.

BeardofPants · 10-27-2004, 11:58 PM

Yep, the australopithecines probably WERE larger, but the margin wouldn't have been that much. The 3ft female is considered marginally shorter than the rest, remember.

height estimates

Draken · 10-28-2004, 09:23 AM

It ain't the size that's exciting, it's the date. Australopithecines were maybe a little larger, but MUCH more ancient - their remains are from millions of years ago.

The Flores find has been dated at about 13,000 years old - evidence that a totally separate species of human was around at the same time as modern homo sapiens, quite a long time after the extinction of the Neanderthals. That's pretty stunning.

Funny how so many cultures have stories of 'the little people.' I've often wondered if maybe it was a methaphorical reference to the Bronze Age people marginalised and then swept away by the likes of the Celts. But maybe, in some parts of the world at least, there really were, literally, little people, whose existence has been passed on in legend. Just a thought!

Olmer · 10-28-2004, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

LOL! Sorry Lefty, I beat you to it. I posted it yesterday morning in GMs. Closing

You "killed" an interesting topick, which is REALLY belongs to the "Middle Earth" threads, the discussions connected with Tolkien world.
In the light that activity on the Moot so drastically droping, shouldn't you be more flexible?

**Nurvingiel** · 10-28-2004, 12:23 PM

Psst... Olmer... Middle-earth isn't real... and archealogical finds in Earth are...

BeardofPants · 10-28-2004, 01:06 PM

Yes, Draken, you're right. It's damned exciting about the fact that there WERE another people running 'round with us sapiens. The time-frame is amazing.

katya · 10-28-2004, 06:21 PM

Dude, I saw this thread and figured there was some joke, then we started talking about it in physics class. I laughed so hard! It's crazy though. It's almost like having an intelligent alien species, only on the same planet, and with presumably the same evolutionary origin. But it's kind of the same, in a weird way. I wish I could've met one.

Elvellon · 10-29-2004, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draken

The Flores find has been dated at about 13,000 years old - evidence that a totally separate species of human was around at the same time as modern homo sapiens, quite a long time after the extinction of the Neanderthals. That's pretty stunning.

If they did become extinct that is. Considering the finding of Lagar Velho it may be that they just blend in.

Draken · 10-29-2004, 09:23 AM

Well, Lagar Velho has certainly given the admixture hypthothesis a lot more credibility.

If so, I can only guess that it proves that Homo Sapiens had access to pretty powerful alcohol...I mean I know nobody is ugly at 2 am, but you'd have to be pretty wrecked to want to pull a neanderthal.

Elvellon · 10-29-2004, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draken

Well, Lagar Velho has certainly given the admixture hypthothesis a lot more credibility.

If so, I can only guess that it proves that Homo Sapiens had access to pretty powerful alcohol...I mean I know nobody is ugly at 2 am, but you'd have to be pretty wrecked to want to pull a neanderthal.

LOL
Ah, you are simply considering modern aesthetics, but remember the old “Venus” they found from the Palaeolithic, hardly what we would now consider top model material.

inked · 10-29-2004, 10:31 AM

Well to drag this back to practical interbreeding particulars:

interbreeding raises the whole complex of problems related to birthing a live progeny even before raising it to reporductive age;

hybrids are frequently sterile;

mechanics of fetal size and passageway dimensions render live birth and survival problematic.

Draken · 10-29-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Well to drag this back to practical interbreeding particulars:

interbreeding raises the whole complex of problems related to birthing a live progeny even before raising it to reporductive age;

hybrids are frequently sterile;

mechanics of fetal size and passageway dimensions render live birth and survival problematic.

But not necessarily sterile - I'm thinking for example of the coyote/canis rufus hybrid that was blamed for endangering the 'pure' red wolf. The morphological differences between Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are pronounced and that has always led to the belief that Neanderthals were a truly separate species that could not interbreed. But evidence that Neanderthal characterstics survived (I'm not sure but from memory this find was dated several thousand years after the accepted date for the extinction of Neanderthals) means that assumption must be challenged. Whatever difficulties that MAY be imagined, we must find a way to explain how a skeleton bearing this mosaic of Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon features came about - and the admixture hypothesis immediately looks a stronger contender than it has previously.

inked · 10-29-2004, 12:28 PM

OK, Draken!

I merely posit that for whatever skeletal features on one skeleton must be explained, the proof of the puddin' will have objections!

Now, pragmatically, just how drunk would the Neanderthal of either sex have to be to mate with the just how drunk Homo sapiens of either sex?

Anyone else seen the humorous flick with this premise? The Origin of Fire or some such, it was. Pretty entertaining. I'd recommend it for Halloween, anyway.

Count Comfect · 10-29-2004, 12:30 PM

The boy is about 4000 years after Neanderthals were believed to be extinct. No way of knowing why he looks like a combination of features, although interbreeding is obviously a very highly thought of hypothesis. Although Neanderthals aren't always considered a separate species - some say Homo neanderthalensis, some Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (i.e. a subspecies that could possibly still breed with modernistic Homo sapiens).

About the hobbitish - they basically look like tiny Homo erectus, with a more delicate mouth. Which would be interesting evidence (if such it is) for human dwarfing on islands like the dwarfing seen among almost all Other mammals when they reach islands.

inked · 05-08-2010, 09:23 PM

Two items of interest.

The Flores hobbit update:
http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/...on_some__limbs

Neanderthals und Homo sapiens:
http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/...ng_with_humans

http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/...t_new_hominid_

umm, make that three items of interest!

10-27-2004, 02:30 PM	#1
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Proof: Tolkien's world is real Actually, I just thought this was an interesting article. "Hobbit" Discovered: Tiny Human Ancestor Found in Asia Hillary Mayell for National Geographic News October 27, 2004 Scientists have found fossil skeletons of a hobbit-like species of human that grew no larger than a three-year-old modern child. The tiny humans, who had skulls about the size of grapefruits, lived with pygmy elephants and Komodo dragons on a remote island in Indonesia as recently as 13,000 years ago. Australian and Indonesian researchers discovered bones of the miniature humans in a cave on Flores, an island midway between Asia and Australia. Scientists have determined that the first skeleton they found belongs to a species of human completely new to science. Named Homo floresiensis, after the island on which it was found, the tiny human has also been dubbed by dig workers as the "hobbit," after the tiny creatures from the Lord of the Rings books. The original skeleton, a female, stood at just 1 meter (3.3 feet) tall, weighed about 25 kilograms (55 pounds), and was around 30 years old at the time of her death. Read the full story >>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...nsis.html#main __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-27-2004, 03:49 PM	#3
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	That is way cool, though of course it isn't the first example of tiny hominids. One only has to look further back in the fossil record to find tiny hominids, both the australopithecines, and the genus homo. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

10-27-2004, 04:29 PM	#4
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	BoP, yes, well, aren't you really desirous of their pants status? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-27-2004, 11:27 PM	#6
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	Frodo Evolved! That's way smaller than any other species. Even our australopithecine ancestors are larger. My anthropology teacher was emailed us all in a fluster. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-27-2004, 11:58 PM	#7
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Yep, the australopithecines probably WERE larger, but the margin wouldn't have been that much. The 3ft female is considered marginally shorter than the rest, remember. height estimates __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 10-28-2004 at 12:02 AM.

10-27-2004, 11:22 PM	#5
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	Awwwwww! So tiny, yet do deadly . Or something like that. Yea... yea... Frodo Lives and all that. Lived, rather.

10-28-2004, 09:23 AM	#8
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	It ain't the size that's exciting, it's the date. Australopithecines were maybe a little larger, but MUCH more ancient - their remains are from millions of years ago. The Flores find has been dated at about 13,000 years old - evidence that a totally separate species of human was around at the same time as modern homo sapiens, quite a long time after the extinction of the Neanderthals. That's pretty stunning. Funny how so many cultures have stories of 'the little people.' I've often wondered if maybe it was a methaphorical reference to the Bronze Age people marginalised and then swept away by the likes of the Celts. But maybe, in some parts of the world at least, there really were, literally, little people, whose existence has been passed on in legend. Just a thought! __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

10-28-2004, 01:06 PM	#11
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Yes, Draken, you're right. It's damned exciting about the fact that there WERE another people running 'round with us sapiens. The time-frame is amazing. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

10-28-2004, 06:21 PM	#12
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	Dude, I saw this thread and figured there was some joke, then we started talking about it in physics class. I laughed so hard! It's crazy though. It's almost like having an intelligent alien species, only on the same planet, and with presumably the same evolutionary origin. But it's kind of the same, in a weird way. I wish I could've met one.

10-29-2004, 09:23 AM	#14
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	Well, Lagar Velho has certainly given the admixture hypthothesis a lot more credibility. If so, I can only guess that it proves that Homo Sapiens had access to pretty powerful alcohol...I mean I know nobody is ugly at 2 am, but you'd have to be pretty wrecked to want to pull a neanderthal. __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

10-29-2004, 10:31 AM	#16
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Well to drag this back to practical interbreeding particulars: interbreeding raises the whole complex of problems related to birthing a live progeny even before raising it to reporductive age; hybrids are frequently sterile; mechanics of fetal size and passageway dimensions render live birth and survival problematic. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-29-2004, 12:28 PM	#18
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	OK, Draken! I merely posit that for whatever skeletal features on one skeleton must be explained, the proof of the puddin' will have objections! Now, pragmatically, just how drunk would the Neanderthal of either sex have to be to mate with the just how drunk Homo sapiens of either sex? Anyone else seen the humorous flick with this premise? The Origin of Fire or some such, it was. Pretty entertaining. I'd recommend it for Halloween, anyway. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-29-2004, 12:30 PM	#19
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	The boy is about 4000 years after Neanderthals were believed to be extinct. No way of knowing why he looks like a combination of features, although interbreeding is obviously a very highly thought of hypothesis. Although Neanderthals aren't always considered a separate species - some say Homo neanderthalensis, some Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (i.e. a subspecies that could possibly still breed with modernistic Homo sapiens). About the hobbitish - they basically look like tiny Homo erectus, with a more delicate mouth. Which would be interesting evidence (if such it is) for human dwarfing on islands like the dwarfing seen among almost all Other mammals when they reach islands. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

05-08-2010, 09:23 PM	#20
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Two items of interest. The Flores hobbit update: http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/...on_some__limbs Neanderthals und Homo sapiens: http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/...ng_with_humans http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/...t_new_hominid_ umm, make that three items of interest! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

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