Who is the Mouth of Sauron?

[Maedhros]

Who is the Mouth of Sauron?
From the LOTR: The Black Gate Opens

At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’ But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.

Age of the Mouth of Sauron:
According to LOTR: Appendix B

In the Secong Age: c. 1000; Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenoreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dûr.
But it was stated that he entered to his service when the Dark Tower first rose again.
In the Third Age: 2951; Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dûr.

What is a Black Númenórean?
The Black Númenóreans were the ones who were deceived by Sauron when he was captured in Númenor. They took to the worship of Morgoth and they built in Armenelos a mighty temple for him.
From The Published Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again. Wherefore seeing the smoke of Orodruin from afar, and perceiving that Sauron had returned, the Númenóreans named that mountain anew Amon Amarth, which is Mount Doom. And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.

In 3262 S.A.; Sauron is taken as prisoner to Númenor; 3262-3310 S.A. Sauron seduces the King and corrupts the Númenoreans.
3320 S.A.; Sauron returns to Mordor.

There are two possibilities that I can see. If the Mouth of Sauron is a black Númenórean, then he could be one that escaped the destruction of Númenor by going to either Pelargir or Umbar and entering openly into the Service of Sauron in 3320 of the Second Age.
Or, he was a descendant of Black Númenóreans, and entered his service in 2951 of the Third Age. It is in 3019 of the Third Age when Sauron was defeated.

In Scenario A, if he entered into his service in 3320 of the Second Age, by the time of the defeat of Sauron, he would have been 3341-3320 = 21 + 3019 = 3040 years in the service of Sauron.

In Scenario B, if he entered into his service in 2951 of the Third Age, he would be: 3019 – 2951 = 68 years old in the Service of Sauron.

If Scenario A is correct, then it would be coincide with the fact that he was an Original Black Númenórean, but the problem with that is how do you explain the fact that he lived for over 3000 years, and was not a ringwraith? He was a sorcerer, and he knew much of the mind of Sauron, but could he had learned enough to live that long? Granted that if you lived that long, it is possible that you will forget your name.

If Scenario B is correct, then the Mouth of Sauron would have been in the Service of Sauron for 68 years and because he was a descendant of Númenóreans, it is possible that he already was 100 or 200 years old. Would 168 or 268 would be long enough to forget your own name?

[Maedhros]

From The War of the Ring: The Black Gates Open

No more is said in the draft of the history of the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr, the nameless Mouth of Sauron, than that ‘It is told that he was a living man, who being-captured as a youth became a servant of the Dark Tower, and because of his cunning grew high in the Lord's favour ...' In the fair copy this was repeated, but was changed subsequently to: 'But it is said that he was a renegade, son of a house of wise and noble men in Gondor, who becoming enamoured of evil knowledge entered the service of the Dark Tower, and because of his cunning [and the fertile cruelty of his mind] [and servility] he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour ...' (these phrases being thus bracketed in the original). In RK (p. 164)the Mouth of Sauron 'came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans'.

This quote of course don’t bring anything new to the discussion, but the fact that it states he was a man of Gondor tells me that he isn’t that long lived after all, and the possibility that he was 3000 + years old is odd.
Che pensi tu?

[Wayfarer]

Your second scenario is most likely correct, for the following reasons:

1) As you point out, he was still a living, mortal man and not a ringwraith, which means that he couldn't have lived for 3000+ years.

2) The reference to the dark tower 'rising again' better fits the rebuilding in 2951 than the earlier dates, because on each of those occasions the dark tower had never been destroyed 9and thus didn't need rebuilding)

3) He from Gondor, the son of a lord. Since Gondor was founded after the fall of numenor, and most likely did not become well established to the point of having lords and great houses until long after the last alliance of elves and men.

4) He began service with the dark lord in his youth. If we take this to mean 18-12 years of age, then it is quite possible that he could forget his birth name in that time, as do many 'adopted' children who are given new names.

[Húrin Thalion]

Quite an interesting fellow, been discussed a lot already but here is my theory regarding his status in Sauron's service, if anyone here is visiting the Barrowdowns you might have already seen it, but isn't recycling wonderful?

Anyway, what do we know more of this chap, him being quite a nasty fellow excepted? He was still a man, and he was still living in a very high degree. His status on Mordor then? He rose quickly die to his sourcery and went to Sauron because he was enamoured by the evil knowledge. He is said to have known much of Sauron's mind, growing ever higher in his favour due to hsi cunning. Not to mention that he was crueler than any orc, this makes him seem like the second man in Mordor, especially because he ahs got his free will left. He was an emissary, and in medieval times, those were high born nobles, a very important position, not entrusted to anybody, I would think taht he was considered above the Nazgûl who were simply doing the dirty work for their Master, looking for Rings and commanding armies. Just like Denethor said, he was a spear in Sauron's hand. He must have had some military importance in the Black tower since he is said to be 'lieutenant of Barad dûr', probably he was the second in command. To make a clarification, he was responsible for the war at a strategic level while the Nazgûl ran the lower operational and tactical levels. Look at him as a Chief of Staff and close advisor to the Dark lord.
One thing that speaks for this theory is that the Lord of Angmar, A.K.A. Chief of the Nazgûls was his ablest military commander, which I assume means field commander, not staff officer.

What speaks for the Nazgul is a few things, chiefly uttered by their opponents. Pippin syas at the battle of the Morannon: If I just could get a blow at that ugly lieutenant I would almost keep pace with Merry's achievement." (or something to that effect) Notice the almost, speaking for their rank. Moreover, Gandalf makes some hints about their status, but all this is very vague.

I have here avoided one quite relevant question, who was he before Mordor? My guess would be, as said that eh was a Numenorean that voluntarily crossed over, that must have amde it easier for him to gain Sauron's favour, anyone else habe a theory? Something that interests me is what other roles he might have played? For example, the Messenger that came to Dain seemed pretty nasty, could it possibly be the Mouth of Sauron? Any thoughts?

Oh, and on Aristocracy, there was Lords of Gondor before the war of the last alliance. There are two possibilities, either, they just kept the Númenorean rank which is possible, but they did not keep the title Tar so, who knows. The otehr and harder way, was to appoint a new aristocracy after their personal likings and after which people were crafty and cunning, these would then have to be 'thaught' how to 'be' aristocracy. And an upper calss was of course immediatley formed, who would else usurp, live on and govern the vulgar masses, as it was thought necessary. The Aristocracy was an extremely important feature in medieval society and you can imagine how great that need for leadershp must have been when you found an entirely new Kingdom. Since there was 14 years between the foundation nd the invasion of the eastlands, the second theory is possible but still unlikely.

Húrin Thalion

[azalea]

Since we already had a recent thread about this same subject, I went ahead and merged your excellent post into it.

[Sween]

correct me if im wrong but the Nazgul no longer had to wear there rings to be under the domination of Sauron. He did not have the power to give longer life to man i dont believe so ive allways thought was he wearing a ring of power if so hes one sick bugga seeing what they do to you in the end an all

[Bombadillo]

From LotR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers, part I, section iv, Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion, Stewards:

Ecthelion II, son of Turgon, was a man of wisdom. With what power was left to him he began to strengthen his realm against the assault of Mordor. He encouraged all men of Worth from near or far to enter his service, and to those who proved trustworthy he gave rank and reward. In much that he did he had the aid and advice of one great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak, but no one knew his true name or in what land he was born. He came to Ecthelion from Rohan, where he had served King Thengel, but he was not one of the Rohirrim. He was a great leader of men, by land or by sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.
Thorongil often counseled Ecthelion that the strength of the rebels in Umbar was a great peril to Gondor, and a threat to the fiefs of the south that would prove deadly, if Sauron moved to open war. At last he got leave of the Steward and gathered a small fleet, and he came to Umbar unlooked for by night, and there burned a great part of the ships of the Corsairs. He himself overthrew the Captain of the Haven in battle upon the quays, and then withdrew his fleet with small loss. But when they came back to Pelargir, to men’s grief and wonder, he would not return to Minas Tirith, where great honour awaited him.
He sent a message of farewell to Ecthelion, saying: “Other tasks now call me lord, and much time and many perils must pass, ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate.” Though no one could guess what those tasks might be, it was known whither he went. For he took a boat and crossed over Anduin, and there he said farewell to his companions and went on alone; and when he was last seen his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow.
There was dismay in the city at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.
…At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor, nor held him higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

Now to me it seems quite possible that this man Thorongil visited Mordor to become the Mouth of Sauron after his work in Gondor. I see only two problems with this theory: 1) the date, 2980, and 2) why would he openly favor Gandalf to Saruman?

1) I think it also could make sense that he was going back to Mordor, and returning to his post.
2) A. He planned to set a trap for Gandalf, but seeing that he wasn’t falling for it, he aborted mission.
B. He was a wise man, he could have simply been building up Denethor’s hate for Gandalf, so that he might make his task of destroying the Ring more difficult. Of course, back then, neither he nor Sauron could have known fully of his involvement in this plot, but they definately did know that he’d be a likely candidate. Someone, maybe Thorongil, let Saruman know anyway.
C. He lived in Mordor his whole life, many ages of men. He's earned a vacation.

As you can see, I also made bold all the peices that hinted at his identity. I'd also like to point out that he was indeed a captain. Back in Minas Tirith, he had "ranks and rewards" awaiting him. I believe he refused to go back for any 'ceremony' because it would make him seem loyal to Gondor, which he was not. Instead, he promoted himself to Lietenant, which is the position he still claims today.

So really, this story fits in more than any others I've heard.

[azalea]

The only problem is that Thorongil is an alias for Aragorn.
But you're right, the things you highlighted from the story do make him seem a very suspicious character!

[Bombadillo]

Crap!!

[Wayfarer]

Hate it when that happens, don't you? ]: D

[Lefty Scaevola]

Chuckle, well, maybe Aragorn had an evil twin.

[Attalus]

Darn it, I was going to post that Thoronghil was Aragorn. Late, again.