Sauron's view on Domination

[AndMorgothCame.]

I've viewed the threads about the Valar possibly intervening on Sauron's takeover of Middle Earth during the Third Age, and why or why not they did more than 'just' send the Istari (which proved well enough); but what about Sauron's viewpoint? Obviously he was there during the First Age and saw that his leader was dethrowned by the Valar and Eonwe. My question is: If he tried to duplicate Melkor's actions, what would make him think that the Valar wouldn't easily overthrow him, as they did with Melkor? Yes, his lust for dominance could make him overconfident in his actions, BUT history serves as a learning curve, and, as Sauron being the most knowledgable Being on Middle Earth, in the long run, what would make him think he could do better than his predecessor? (Keep in mind that all the fell beings of Melkor multiplied in hiding, waiting for the return of their master, as Sauron SHOULD have) I know this question is highly debatable and there is no true answer, but what is wrong with sparking opinions? Thoughts?

[Valandil]

Interesting thought.

Maybe he determined that the Valar had effectively removed themselves from direct action in the situation.

Otherwise - yes, I'd say he should be a little concerned that if he WERE successful in his venture, he might lose it all to the Valar.

After all... that Numenor thing hadn't gone quite the way he planned. Even when he tried to console himself with the thought that he had at least destroyed them, it was the very best of them who were saved as a remnant and destroyed him once before.

The guy just may not have learned from his mistakes. Knowledge is one thing... wisdom another.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Ah, I believe your last sentence sums it up perfectly, and I doubt this thread will go much further. Good point.

[Alcuin]

In Morgoth’s Ring, Volume X of the History of Middle-earth series, in the chapter “Myths Transformed”, section VII has an essay by Tolkien, “Notes on Motivations” that addresses Sauron’s view on domination. (In my hardcover American edition, this starts on page 394 and runs to page 398.)

These two passages from that essay are often cited as Tolkien’s view of Sauron’s motivations. Morgoth’s insanely corrupt motivations are separately described in the essay.

Sauron … did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. … Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do… [T]he only real good in, or rational motive for, all [Sauron’s] ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron’s right to be their supreme lord), his “plans”, … became the sole object of his will, and … the End in itself.
…
Sauron was not a “sincere” atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda). ... To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. … But though Sauron’s whole true motive [[my editorial interjection:] at the end of the Second Age] was the destruction of the Númenóreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn... Sauron … would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

While Sauron corrupted the Númenóreans (that is, the majority party of Númenor, the “King’s Men”) in the Second Age by enticing them to worship Morgoth, in the Third Age, he proclaimed himself a god, and demanded that his subjects worship him. In Letter 183 to the poet W.H. Auden, who became Tolkien’s friend after corresponding and eventually meeting him following the publication of Lord of the Rings, Tolkien wrote,

The Eldar and the Númenóreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination. Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.

There is footnote to the words “was held to be [a God-King] by his servants” that reads in part,

…When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures [in Middle Earth] and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age … he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

In his wisdom, Elrond declared in the “Council of Elrond” (FotR) that “nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.” Sauron, attracted to Morgoth’s methods as a quick and easy means to “order and co-ordination”, fell from the grace in which he was created. Embracing the idea that The ends justify the means is well-known as a first step on the Road to Perdition. When Morgoth was in power, Sauron acted as his chief servant to achieve his own ends. When Morgoth was defeated, Sauron presented himself as Morgoth’s high priest. In the Third Age, Sauron himself sought to worshipped instead of Eru. In the same vein, Tolkien says that throughout his interaction with them, Sauron sought to deceive Men about the existence of Eru in order to divert their proper worship of Eru first to Morgoth and then to himself.

I think Sauron’s view on domination was first to enforce his will upon others (“order and co-ordination, and” the avoidance of “all confusion and wasteful friction,” or at least the avoidance of what Sauron considered “confusion and wasteful friction”). He quickly matriculated to seeking to seduce Men, the weaker Incarnates, into rejecting Eru and rebelling against their Maker as had he; then to directing worship to the Enemy; then into impersonating the Enemy to obtain worship himself.

Sauron was probably content for the Elves to exist, as his own subjects, his motivation for making the Rings of Power: to control, order, and co-ordinate Middle-earth, to avoid all that he regarded confusion and wasteful friction (to wit, anything that interfered with his plans), but most of all to impose his will upon all other sentient creatures, whether they would or no. I think his desire to dominate others led directly to Sauron’s desire to receive their worship.

Originally Posted by Valandil

The guy just may not have learned from his mistakes. Knowledge is one thing... wisdom another.

C.f. Gandalf the White’s description of Sauron in “The White Rider” (TT): “Wise fool.”

[AndMorgothCame.]

Great points, Alcuin. It almost seems that Sauron 'worked' for Morgoth because they had similar ideals, rather than him actually worshipping the latter. I think, secretly, Sauron thought on his own wavelength and may have not always agreed with Morgoth's views.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

:
:
C.f. Gandalf the White’s description of Sauron in “The White Rider” (TT): “Wise fool.”

Also translated as: "sophomore"

[barrelrider110]

So, to paraphrase everything said so far,
Sauron had no use for worship, as a subject. He desired order, and when he found he could create order through influence, he thought, "why should I worship the One when I can create a new order, one that would worship me?" So, he continued to manipulate and gain power, step by step, over time. So long as the Valar did nothing (directly) to stop him, he kept on.

To quote much quoted maxim: "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely."

The dude couldn't help himself, reason be damned.

Valandil said it so nicely: "Knowledge is one thing... wisdom another."

[MasterMothra]

Thats some good info Alcuin.

I havent read the HoME series in quite some time but what I took from it was that Morgoth wanted to destroy everything and rebuild it his way. Sauron wanted to control and bring order to the existing world. It seemed the master and apprentice differed on a few things. I think Sauron thought his plan would work because he believed his way was right. The Valar would not directly interviene anymore so he had a pretty good chance in succeeding.

[Valandil]

And, speaking of Sauron...

Happy March 25th!

(Or should we just say Happy New Year? Or Happy Fourth Age Middle Earth New Year? )