The Escape from the Mirkwood elves

GandalfTheWhite · 09-05-2002, 07:27 PM

Doesnt it seem kind of out of charachter for elves do get drunk and pass out which leads to the escape of Thorin and company?

entss89 · 09-05-2002, 07:43 PM

yeah that really puzzled me and i was asking my-self thier is no way that happened, or did it? i totally agree with you on how shocked i was.

Beleg Strongbow · 09-06-2002, 08:29 AM

Well, the Elves of Mirkwood are somewhat less cultured and controlled than Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien (exception Legolas).
Still, you have to remember that Tolkien wrote the Hobbit first, so that was in character for elves.

katya · 09-09-2002, 04:20 PM

very true. they are not the same as other elves. i kind of liked that part though. how could you not like drunken elves?

BeardofPants · 09-09-2002, 06:11 PM

Plus there is the rather glaringly obvious fact that Tolkien's Hobbit was not originally intended for the world of middle earth.

olsonm · 09-10-2002, 02:40 AM

There was a festival going on. The guard was described as being quite put out that he couldn't join in the merry-making. The dwarves had been safely in custody for weeks by this point and the guard could not have possibly known about Bilbo. IIRC he is also described as having a soft spot for wine, so he imbibed in order to feel he was a part of the festival being understandably confident that the dwarves could not escape. He certainly deserved to be reprimanded for this dereliction of duty (and the book implied he was) but I thought that the characterization was very believable.

Linarryl · 10-19-2002, 01:41 PM

I think it is out of character. I mean take Legolas, he's a elf from Mirkwood. Imagine him getting drunk and pass out!That is not right.

*GO LEGOLAS!*

Fred Baggins · 10-19-2002, 02:00 PM

But Legolas came AFTER the Hobbit! Like was stated before it probably WAS in character for the elves at the time because The Hobbit was the first book. I am sure Tolkin might have changed his mind about how the elves act a little after The Hobbit. I know that when I am wirting my ideas of my characters change alot.

BeardofPants · 10-19-2002, 04:40 PM

It is true that legolas didn't come into the story of the Hobbit, but he still would have been around somewhere.

Lizra · 10-19-2002, 06:57 PM

Them's my kind of elves!

I like em.....The Lothlorien elves from the movie could use a drink or two!

***azalea*** · 10-19-2002, 07:04 PM

Perhaps another reason could be that there was a lot more heavy stuff going down by the time of LotR than was happening at that time in the world. The "shadow had not grown in the east" at that point, and so the elves may just have been a little more easy-going then. By TLotR, the elven race was pretty much heading out of ME a little at a time. They would have been more serious and melancholy because of those things.
But I still like to think those Mirkwood elves still liked their wine.

Lefty Scaevola · 10-20-2002, 03:50 PM

Elves are fond of wine. Recall also that most of the evles you encounter in the books and upper class and nobility, or else lower class elves on active military service and under military discipline. That scence in the the hoobit is one of the few with lower class elves living non war lives.

Aeryn · 10-20-2002, 06:48 PM

*Clears throat* Well you have to feel for the guard, I mean to his knowledge the dwarves could not escape, and yet he was made to perform his duties as the guard on a day of celebration.
What if say on Christmas (eggnog yummmmmm!) you were made to watch rats in a cage (yes it gets reletive in a moment), so they wouldnt escape, wouldnt you feel a little put out, wouldnt you chug the eggnog?
I would.
Anyway, saying it was OOC is well...anyway...it was as much the fault as the elves who threw the barrels in the water (knowing they were to heavy but tossing them anyway) letting Thorins CO escape.

markedel · 10-20-2002, 08:58 PM

Once again-the Hobbit didn't take place in ME-not orginally so regardless of culture differences between the Sindar and Silvan-well the "elf-king" "wasn't" Tharanduil.

Dealin · 10-21-2002, 09:40 PM

I don't see any reason that Elves wouldn't do that.... seems perfectly acceptable for Elves in Middle-earth. What makes you think they wouldn't?

Besides, as has been said, these were the Silvan Elves, they had always lived in Middle-earth. Many of the Elves we hear of in LotR are the Noldor who are the Elves that went to Valinor. That could explain why they behave the way they do.... but we hear little of the average silvan and sindarin elves.

Dealin · 10-22-2002, 04:05 AM

about Legolas: he was of the lordly class of the Sindarin elves, so I think what I said about the Noldor would apply to him... as to why he wouldn't behave in that manner.

Beleg Strongbow · 10-29-2002, 02:34 PM

mmmmm. Elves do like wine.
If you have trouble imagining what drunk elves would be like:
RPG forum: The Drunk Elf Pirates and the Quest for the Holy Wine.

Artanis · 10-29-2002, 06:19 PM

Legolas liked wine. When he, Gimli and Aragorn were reunited with Merry and Pip in Isengard, he envied the Hobbits their wine.

In general, I don't think Elves would become drunk in the same manner as Men, their spirit have far more control over their bodies. But the Hobbit wasn't written to fit into ME, as many of you have pointed out already.

Beleg Strongbow · 11-08-2002, 02:34 PM

I agree, Artanis, I was just trying to be funny. That thread's a hoot.

Artanis · 11-09-2002, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
I agree, Artanis, I was just trying to be funny. That thread's a hoot.

Ah, my remark wasn't directed at your post, it was an answer to GtW's original question.

09-05-2002, 07:27 PM	#1
GandalfTheWhite Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 297	The Escape from the Mirkwood elves Doesnt it seem kind of out of charachter for elves do get drunk and pass out which leads to the escape of Thorin and company? __________________ "Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council." -Gandalf The Road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say. "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom." -Gandalf "A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Gandalf

09-05-2002, 07:43 PM	#2
entss89 lord of the ents Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: nc Posts: 539	hi yeah that really puzzled me and i was asking my-self thier is no way that happened, or did it? i totally agree with you on how shocked i was.

09-06-2002, 08:29 AM	#3
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	Well, the Elves of Mirkwood are somewhat less cultured and controlled than Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien (exception Legolas). Still, you have to remember that Tolkien wrote the Hobbit first, so that was in character for elves. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

09-09-2002, 06:11 PM	#5
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Plus there is the rather glaringly obvious fact that Tolkien's Hobbit was not originally intended for the world of middle earth. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-10-2002, 02:40 AM	#6
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	There was a festival going on. The guard was described as being quite put out that he couldn't join in the merry-making. The dwarves had been safely in custody for weeks by this point and the guard could not have possibly known about Bilbo. IIRC he is also described as having a soft spot for wine, so he imbibed in order to feel he was a part of the festival being understandably confident that the dwarves could not escape. He certainly deserved to be reprimanded for this dereliction of duty (and the book implied he was) but I thought that the characterization was very believable. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

09-09-2002, 04:20 PM	#4
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	very true. they are not the same as other elves. i kind of liked that part though. how could you not like drunken elves?

10-19-2002, 01:41 PM	#7
Linarryl Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 160	I think it is out of character. I mean take Legolas, he's a elf from Mirkwood. Imagine him getting drunk and pass out!That is not right. GO LEGOLAS!

10-19-2002, 02:00 PM	#8
Fred Baggins Belladona Gamgee of the night sky Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: second star to the right and straight on till morning. Posts: 1,783	But Legolas came AFTER the Hobbit! Like was stated before it probably WAS in character for the elves at the time because The Hobbit was the first book. I am sure Tolkin might have changed his mind about how the elves act a little after The Hobbit. I know that when I am wirting my ideas of my characters change alot. __________________ Emperor Cusco: Lemme guess. We're about to go down a huge water-fall. Pacha:Yep. Cusco: Sharp rocks at the bottum? Pacha:Most likely. Cusco:Bring it on. ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` Yes, I'm female. Fred Baggins is my NICKNAME! ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` "The reason of the unreasonable treatment of my reason so enfeebles my reason, that with reason I complain of your beauty."~Don Quixote ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` "Once upon a time there was a magical land where it never rained. The End."~from the movie 'Holes' ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` ()_))_Crayola_))_>

10-19-2002, 04:40 PM	#9
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	It is true that legolas didn't come into the story of the Hobbit, but he still would have been around somewhere. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

10-19-2002, 06:57 PM	#10
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Them's my kind of elves! I like em.....The Lothlorien elves from the movie could use a drink or two! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

10-19-2002, 07:04 PM	#11
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Perhaps another reason could be that there was a lot more heavy stuff going down by the time of LotR than was happening at that time in the world. The "shadow had not grown in the east" at that point, and so the elves may just have been a little more easy-going then. By TLotR, the elven race was pretty much heading out of ME a little at a time. They would have been more serious and melancholy because of those things. But I still like to think those Mirkwood elves still liked their wine.

10-20-2002, 03:50 PM	#12
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Elves are fond of wine. Recall also that most of the evles you encounter in the books and upper class and nobility, or else lower class elves on active military service and under military discipline. That scence in the the hoobit is one of the few with lower class elves living non war lives.

10-20-2002, 06:48 PM	#13
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	for instance Clears throat Well you have to feel for the guard, I mean to his knowledge the dwarves could not escape, and yet he was made to perform his duties as the guard on a day of celebration. What if say on Christmas (eggnog yummmmmm!) you were made to watch rats in a cage (yes it gets reletive in a moment), so they wouldnt escape, wouldnt you feel a little put out, wouldnt you chug the eggnog? I would. Anyway, saying it was OOC is well...anyway...it was as much the fault as the elves who threw the barrels in the water (knowing they were to heavy but tossing them anyway) letting Thorins CO escape. __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

10-20-2002, 08:58 PM	#14
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Once again-the Hobbit didn't take place in ME-not orginally so regardless of culture differences between the Sindar and Silvan-well the "elf-king" "wasn't" Tharanduil. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

10-21-2002, 09:40 PM	#15
Dealin Sapling Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 10	I don't see any reason that Elves wouldn't do that.... seems perfectly acceptable for Elves in Middle-earth. What makes you think they wouldn't? Besides, as has been said, these were the Silvan Elves, they had always lived in Middle-earth. Many of the Elves we hear of in LotR are the Noldor who are the Elves that went to Valinor. That could explain why they behave the way they do.... but we hear little of the average silvan and sindarin elves.

10-22-2002, 04:05 AM	#16
Dealin Sapling Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 10	about Legolas: he was of the lordly class of the Sindarin elves, so I think what I said about the Noldor would apply to him... as to why he wouldn't behave in that manner.

10-29-2002, 02:34 PM	#17
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	mmmmm. Elves do like wine. If you have trouble imagining what drunk elves would be like: RPG forum: The Drunk Elf Pirates and the Quest for the Holy Wine. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

10-29-2002, 06:19 PM	#18
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Legolas liked wine. When he, Gimli and Aragorn were reunited with Merry and Pip in Isengard, he envied the Hobbits their wine. In general, I don't think Elves would become drunk in the same manner as Men, their spirit have far more control over their bodies. But the Hobbit wasn't written to fit into ME, as many of you have pointed out already. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

11-08-2002, 02:34 PM	#19
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	I agree, Artanis, I was just trying to be funny. That thread's a hoot. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

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