Evil Elves...

[Peter_20]

I find evil Elves fascinating.
There's just something about the contrasts that I find really cool.
For example, take fierce dudes like Fëanor and Maeglin: they've got all the physical Elf characteristics, and they're probably considered "beautiful" and everything.
Therefore it's so cool when you consider how evil they became: they stop caring about all the pretty-boy things, but they still are those kinds of characters.
This is really hard to put into words, but I guess you see my point.

I found a really nice drawing of Caranthir a while ago:
http://www.tolkien.com.pl/kasiopea/o...r_portret1.jpg

Caranthir looks really dangerous on that picture, but he IS an ELF.

I usually associate Elves with cute people like MÃ*riel, Finrod and Glorfindel, and then we have the "dark" characters that forsake their beautiful sides and turn to evil, which makes them resemble servants of Morgoth rather than beautiful Elves.

[Olmer]

Cute Elves? I have never had such impression. Beautiful in their own way, with kind of refined gracefulness, not quite like human in the way of thinking, but with all human traits, and at the same time are very powerful, dangerous and even scary. In other words, aliens.

Catherine Karina Chmel is a marvelous artist. I love how she portrays people: you can see their character. One of my favorite Maglor and Maedhros

[Peter_20]

Haha, "cute" perhaps wasn't a very good term, but you see my point, methinks.

I like how they're supposed to be all beautiful and wonderful and whatnot, and still some of them decide "screw it, I ain't no beautiful character, let's kill people! Wait...! Am I still looking beautiful?!"
Like that.

Oh, and that drawing was wonderful too - Maedhros & Maglor v.s. Elrond & Elros!

Elros looks totally freaked out.

[Earniel]

I partially blame the movies for the harmless pretty-boy image the Elves have. Many of the Elves, especially the Silmarillion Elves, I tend to compare to tigers. Beautiful and graceful but fierce and frightening the next moment.

And while the likes of Fëanor, Ëol and Maeglin may be rare, it's frightening to think what if all Elves had been quite like that. We would never have stood a chance, methinks...

[Rían]

And then there's that old Hobbit cartoon-movie, where the elves are really, really ugly!

It's very clear that the Elves are beautiful physically,and the more you read outside of LOTR and Hobbit, I think you'd have to agree with Earniel about the tigers.

[jammi567]

Elves and men (and maiar and valar) are not evil, simply misguided

[Feanaro]

i wasn't evil damn it!, yeah i was deranged, paranoid and lost the plot but my father, who was more dear to me than the silmarils themselves, was slain yet the valar would of had me do nothing like a fool




and yeah i am rather sexy, actually i was the most sexiest elf ever...FACT!

[Landroval]

Those other automaton elves have always given me the nervous heebie-jeebies.

If anything, corrupted beings act like automatons. Corruption means that all the options are bent, biased - the 'automaton' you were talking about.

She was worase than Sauron.

How? Did she have nihilistic tendencies? Did she perform necromancy? Did she torture persons? You must be kidding.

Who's the most beautiful being on middle-earth at the time of LotR?

How about Arwen Evenstar, "in whom it was said that the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again" (~Many Meetings, FotR)?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Landroval

If anything, corrupted beings act like automatons. Corruption means that all the options are bent, biased - the 'automaton' you were talking about.

I agree - evil is the damaging of something good, and is a loss - evil makes someone smaller than they were.

[Peter_20]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I agree - evil is the damaging of something good, and is a loss - evil makes someone smaller than they were.

Yeah, of course evil is the damaging of something good, but this evil usually is the very reason other good stuff will happen.

When Doriath and Gondolin were destroyed, this proved the solution, because Eärendil and Elwing were permitted to journey to Aman and ask the help of the Valar, which saved Middle-earth from Morgoth's dominion.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

Yeah, of course evil is the damaging of something good, but this evil usually is the very reason other good stuff will happen.

Brilliant! Absolutely, such a great point, Peter. And plus, good is not good without evil to give it its meaning. There must be a yin and a yang. If only "good" existed, it wouldn't be "good," would it? There'd be nothing to define it as not-evil, if there were no such thing as evil. Think black/white, male/female, hot/cold. The one concept exists only because of the existence of the other.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

Yeah, of course evil is the damaging of something good, but this evil usually is the very reason other good stuff will happen.

When Doriath and Gondolin were destroyed, this proved the solution, because Eärendil and Elwing were permitted to journey to Aman and ask the help of the Valar, which saved Middle-earth from Morgoth's dominion.

Although Tolkien admitted that Eru can turn all the evils of the Marrer into good, this is no reason to praise evil deeds; they remain evil in and of themselves. Commenting on Gollum's evil, he said it may work for good 'macrocosmically', but Gollum, as an individual, personifies persistence in wickedness, and is "damnable".

I believe it is also pertinent to our discussion to quote Tolkien's statement that he considers the "quick satiety with good" as the "most regrettable feature of the human nature" (letter #256).

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

Yeah, of course evil is the damaging of something good, but this evil usually is the very reason other good stuff will happen.

When Doriath and Gondolin were destroyed, this proved the solution, because Eärendil and Elwing were permitted to journey to Aman and ask the help of the Valar, which saved Middle-earth from Morgoth's dominion.

Kinda cold comfort for the family and friends of those killed in Doriath and Gondolin ... And Middle-earth wouldn't have had to be saved from Morgoth's dominion if Morgoth didn't do evil things.

I think there's a difficult-to-define difference between "evil is good/necessary because it stimulates good things to happen" and "evil is evil, although it's trumped by good actions in response to it". I think the second statement is true, not the first. The first one would be like, "Gee, I'm so happy that my husband and children were cruelly killed because it led to Eärendil's journey and that saved Middle-earth!" The second, which I think is the right one, would be like, "My husband and children were cruelly killed, and that is a terrible tragedy and I wish it didn't happen, yet evil eventually is always overcome by good, and in this case the evil was used to drive Eärendil to his journey, which saved Middle-earth."

It's hard to describe the difference, but do you see what I mean?

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And plus, good is not good without evil to give it its meaning. There must be a yin and a yang. If only "good" existed, it wouldn't be "good," would it? There'd be nothing to define it as not-evil, if there were no such thing as evil. Think black/white, male/female, hot/cold. The one concept exists only because of the existence of the other.

I disagree. I agree with Tolkien that good and evil are not opposites; evil is a diminishing of a good, and absolute evil cannot exist because it is a zero - existence itself is a good.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I agree - evil is the damaging of something good, and is a loss - evil makes someone smaller than they were.

Evil is the exercise of free will in opposition to "the plan" or "the music". At least in Tolkien's world.

What you refer to as automatons are soulless creatures dominated by a greater evil. And even that didn't apply to orcs in the later ages.. They acquired a good bit of free will.

The Nazgul are a better example of that kind of possession.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Evil is the exercise of free will in opposition to "the plan" or "the music". At least in Tolkien's world.

That's one way to put it. My bit of post that you quoted was trying to describe the effect of that evil on the being that chooses it.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

What you refer to as automatons are soulless creatures dominated by a greater evil. And even that didn't apply to orcs in the later ages.. They acquired a good bit of free will.

I didn't refer to them as automatons - Landroval did.

Tolkien had various ideas about orcs, that's for sure.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

What you refer to as automatons are soulless creatures dominated by a greater evil. And even that didn't apply to orcs in the later ages.. They acquired a good bit of free will.

As you can see from my post, I explained why I used that word with quote marks - to reflect the diminishing of free will.

[me9996]

Nope, no perfect evil people, being evil is a (Realy realy big) flaw