Írien, Fingolfin’s sister

[Elvellon]

What may have been the role of Írien, Fingolfin’s sister in Beleriand?

This is a purely speculative thread, since we have so little factual information. We know she went with Fingolfin, her favorite brother, and little else (except that she probably was very fair and had a joyous nature), so what do you think?

[Bard]

I thought she only excisted in HOME, together with another sister Inriel or something like that?! Anyways, if she did have excisted in the Sil she would probably had a minor role. Maybe she maried some importand Elven-lord or something, possibly of Sindarin origin, like galadriel maried Celebor and Aredhel maried Eol. But else I wouldn`t know what specific role she could have played. If she had stayed with her favorite brother Fingolfin in his land of Hithlum I suppose she was either captured or died in the war wherein the North was overtaken by Morgoth`s forses, in special the Easterlings. In case she survived she would have spent the rest of her life in the mines of Angband or otherwise she could, like Aerin, Tuor`s fosterparent, have fled to the south until she reached the harbors of Sirionmouth. From there she could have traveled to Balar where her great-nephew Gil-galad lived (possibly together with his mother, Fingon`s wife, Eldalote, I think she was named).

[Elvellon]

Yes, she is only spoken of in HoME. Nevertheless, she is closely related with the major characters of the Silmarillion, and went with Fingolfin, bringing the question of what unspoken role she may have played in the events of the Silmarillion.


The other sister is Findis, (the eldest of Indis children), and, in another version she had another sister, Faniel, if I remember it right.

[Bard]

Yeah, Findis it was .
Good combination of both names of her parents. And didn`t she go into exile with her brothers and sister?
Something else, you knew that Fingon and Turgon had another brother in first writings? What was his name again? Argon it was. Or in Quenya it was speld as Arakano which could be translated as nobel-scoud, or nobel-leader. the element Ar(a) does also emerge in the name of Finarfin (Quenya: Arafinwe), which means nobel Finwe (with Finwe being the name of his great ancestor, whose name is re-emerged in al his sons and is eldest-son`s children). Argon was said to be Fingolfin`s fourth and youngest child. He went into exile with his familie but turned out to be the second (behind Feanor) descendant of Finwe to die in battle. He fell in the second war of Beleriand in the coastlands of Dimloth above drengist where a horde of Orks made an attack on the unsettled people of Fingolfin.

[Ñólendil]

Lovely, unique topic Elvellon. Kudos.

Michael Martinez brought up Voronwe's Ñoldorin ancestry a while back in one of his essays. Voronwe is Aranwion of the House of Finwe, according Of Tuor And His Coming To [<The Fall Of] Gondolin. How so? Maybe, suggested good ol' MM, Aranwe, Voronwe's father, was descended from Lalwende.

I sometimes imagine Lalwende pleading with her brother not to flee madly into death at Angband's gates, and he coldly refusing her and riding off like the wind on fire. Maybe she was a chief councellor of her brother (and later of his son), and an Elven-leech in times of War. The daughter of Finwe would be highly respected and no doubt she and whomever she married (if she married) were of high posistion.

I suppose the most likely time for her to die would be in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Bard
Yeah, Findis it was .
Good combination of both names of her parents. And didn`t she go into exile with her brothers and sister?

According to the Shibboleth of Feanor Findis never went to Beleriand. She preferred to remain with her mother, and both went to live among her mother’s kin.



Ñolendil, I was indeed unaware of the possible relation of Lalwen and Aranwe (and Voronwe), I have to read that article.

As for the role she may have played as counsellor to Fingolfin and Fingon I agree with you. It was a very likely role for her to play. And I would go a little further, since Anaire, Fingolfin’s wife did not came to Beleriand, and Fingon was unmarried I see her role as being the “Holder of the Keys,” the lady of the house, second only to the king, and ruler of the land in his absence.

[Bard]

But Fingon was married! With Eldalote, to be exactly, she was the mother of Ereinion (earlier Fin(d)elach/Rodnor) Gil-galad. Though I`m not sure weather she also went into exile.
But eh, who was Lalwen if I may ask? Was she of the house of Finwe? And Aranwe, was he just an ondirary Elf beloging to Turgon`s closest friends or what was he?

[Elvellon]

Not according to the latest information available, if I have it right. It seems that, of Fingolfin’s children only Turgon (Turucáno) was married (with Elenwe). Artanáro (or Artaresto, the later name of Gil-Galad), was the son of Artaher (also known as Arothir or Orodreth), and therefore the brother of Finduilas.

Lalwen, or Lalwende to be exact, was the mother’s name of Írien, and it was used in Beleriand in it's shortened version of Lalwen, since it sounded like Sindarin.

[Bard]

Hey, hang on now! Do you imply that Irien, Finwe`s second doughter had a doughter of her own called lalwen(de)? And that she married Aranwe, and had a child called Voronwe? And this Voronwe, is he the Voronwe of whom we hear so much in `over Tuor and his journey to Gondolin`(UT, first chapter)? I suppose it is eh! But then he would have been of very high lineage, couse it would make him Turgon`s cousin in 3th degree or something like that. Then why didn`t he became king after Turgon and Maeglin`s (his closest living male relative next to il-galad) dead? Or of course Tuor and Earendil his son were more closely relative being married with Turgon`s only child. But wouldn`t it make Voronwe some kind of high-prince then? Like Gwindor and Gelmir of Nargothrond were also princes. Talking about them, weren`t they related to the house of Finwe in some ways? hey could have been when Gwindor would have married Finduilas, but alas that didn`t hapen (if thus would have hapened, what roe would they have played in the Elvish history then?) Hmm, to much things to discusse now!

[Elvellon]

Nope, I mean that Lalwende was the name given to Írien by Indis, her mother.

The Eldar had several names, a name given by the father, usually at birth. A name given by the mother, usually considered prophetic. A name given by oneself upon reaching adulthood, nicknames, etc.

Aranwe MAY have Írien’s son, and Voronwe is Aranwe’s son.

As for why Voronwe didn’t became king, there are many explanations for it.

First, the only fact established seem to be that he is related to the royal house, not what the actual relation may be.
Second, even if he is descendent from a daughter of Finwe, he is not a descendent of any of the two royal lines of the Noldor. (Only the sons of Indis were accepted universally as high-kings, the daughters were “jumped by” succession).
It doesn’t seem ever been a clear succession law among the Noldor, something that doesn’t seem unusual, since they were theoretically immortal. The only informal principle of succession I recall is based on male seniority. The eldest descendent of Finwe by a male line seems to have the greatest claim to the throne.

[Ñólendil]

And I would go a little further, since Anaire, Fingolfin’s wife did not came to Beleriand, and Fingon was unmarried I see her role as being the “Holder of the Keys,” the lady of the house, second only to the king, and ruler of the land in his absence.

I agree with that.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Adrehel stayed with Trugon in Nevrast and then Gondolin; Anaire did not go into exile. This make Lalwende the only princess in Fingolfin's territory. She likely was a very inportant figure at his court. The article on the laws and customs of the Eldar (although supeced in some other points) says the Eldarian females were of high dignity and power in their societies, except in matters of war. She Likely held high administrative position in his court, and likely was also the official hostess there, like the suggestion by Elvellon above. She may have also held some small fief under Fingolfin.

[Lollypopgurl]

I didn't even know all that....