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02-05-2005, 06:14 PM
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#1 |
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Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
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Gandalf's second staff
In the movie, when Gandalf and Saruman meet for the first time. Saruman takes away Gandalf's staff.
But after Gandalf is freed by the eagle Gandalf has a staff identical to the fist one. How did that happen? Did Gandalf make a new one identical to the first one? (I know that in the book there is no suggestion on Gandalf being deprived of his staff, I am just asking from the point of view of the movie internal coherence) |
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02-05-2005, 06:31 PM
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#2 |
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Maybe we should call this thread, "Gandalf's Multiple Staffs"!
 The first one would have been taken by Saruman. The second one would have fallen with him at Moria. He got a third one after that. Now... all that follows with the book too, so Tolkien didn't have a problem with him 'finding' or making an identical (or equivalent) staff at need. However - in the EE of ROTK, the third one gets blown away by the Witch-King, which requires him to have had a fourth after that!  
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02-05-2005, 06:41 PM
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#3 |
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Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
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That is not my understaning.
In the book Gandalf does not loose his staff to Saruman. Nor does he loose his staff falling in Moira Am I wrong? |
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02-06-2005, 12:05 AM
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#4 |
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
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The books don't explicitly say that he lost them at those two times... but I can't imagine Saruman letting him take it up to the top of Orthance... and I don't see how he could have it still after the events of fighting the Balrog and the things that happened to him afterwards. Nor is it mentioned that someone else in the fellowship picked it up for him at Moria and gave it back to him when he returned.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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02-06-2005, 12:37 AM
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#5 |
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The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Lazy prop crew.
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02-06-2005, 08:03 AM
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#6 | |||
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Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator 
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Quote:
As for Moria, I always assumed that it fell with him and he somehow managed to keep it during the battle (he would need it). When he was sent back it was beside him in the snow... that's how I pictured it anyway. 
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02-06-2005, 11:36 AM
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#7 |
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Tolkien-aholic
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ...
Posts: 712
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I believe in the movies he would have actually had four
first one taken by Saruman second one lost in MOria third one broken by the Witch King in Minas Tirith fourth one for the rest of the movie!!! SO MANY STAFFS!!
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What was lost is now found. |
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02-14-2005, 09:35 PM
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#8 | ||
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Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
Posts: 2,000
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Quote:
He was given a staff as he was sent as a white wizzard... As for how he got his staff back after isenguard... I gess he called it and it came... 
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02-15-2005, 12:14 AM
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#9 | |
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avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
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What you stated I don't think is correct in any case, so you needn't attack Valandil. Olórin was most likely not sent back to ME with a staff. In fact, he says himself "Naked I was sent back." (The White Rider, The Two Towers). This implies that he in fact was not returned with his staff. I agree with Nurvingiel that it was probably next to him in the snow, though I wonder how hard it actually is to make a staff. The "fourth" time, well... That's anyone's guess... I suppose he just carried extras...
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02-15-2005, 03:41 AM
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#10 |
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Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Arthedian
Posts: 460
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I don't think they have an explaination for the return of the "stolen" staff after the imprisonment on Orthanc. Also Gandalf may or may not have lost his "second" staff after the fall in Moria. Regaurdless he was mortaly killed which results in Gandalf becoming "The White" and returning to Middle-Earth and forming a new staff for his new power. I don't think the Valar sent the staff with him I think it was made in Lorien when he was clothed by Galadriel.
I do have another series of questions regaurding the staves... What power do the staves really have? Why is it so neccessary for an Istari to have his staff? If Gandalf could make (possibly) 3 staves then why would Saruman be so devistated after Gandalf breaks his, couldn't he just make a new one? Finally are the staves powers and use similar to Saurons ring? In the formation of the staves does a portion of the Istari's power flow into the staff?
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02-15-2005, 03:55 PM
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#11 |
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Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
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I believe Gandalf actually meant was that his Power to make staffs (that were magical) was broken. He was cast from the Order of Istari, and, trapped in a mortal body, would have needed some focus of magical power. He doesn't cast any magic in the Shire that we know of, or he would have sent the Hobbits packing. As Frodo guessed (or had been briefed by Gandalf), the only power that he had left was his Voice.
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02-15-2005, 04:17 PM
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#12 | ||
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Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
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Quote:
Anyway, I gess the elves gave his the staff to replase the one lost in moria.
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02-15-2005, 07:14 PM
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#13 | ||
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Co-President of Entmoot
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Maybe the Valar send him another one...
Gandalf: Erm... I lost my staff again. Yavanna: Again? Gandalf: Yeah... *suffles feet* Yavanna: It's okay, I expected that and have one ready for you already. It's in a care package along with a lemon loaf and extra socks.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-27-2005, 06:27 PM
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#14 | ||
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Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
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Quote:
*Blink* I guess they're magic socks
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My status: Novice avatar maker. Elf lord Has no authority whatsoever Master of messing up
Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
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03-01-2005, 02:46 PM
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#15 | |
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Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-05-2005, 12:59 AM
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#16 |
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Lady of Legends
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Missing. Reward if found.
Posts: 1,083
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haha, six pack.
I'm pretty sure that in the book, the thing did actually break in Moria. I used to have the whole passage right there memorized. Its kinda foggy now, but somehow I remember something about how the staff broke asunder after he did his you-cannot-pass speech. btw, the part in EE ROTK where the witch king broke the staff made me scream. |
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03-05-2005, 04:55 PM
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#17 |
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The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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after the witch king broke his staff in EE, i can not see him use a staff throughout the rest of the movie, until the grey havens, so maybe cirdan kept spares for him
i always thought that the power to vreate staffs was in the istari themselves were the definitely made from wood? or just appeared that they were? |
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05-03-2005, 09:24 PM
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#18 | |
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Dreamweaver
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go...
Posts: 3,560
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Quote:
"his staff was broken on the stone, at Kazad-Dum his wisdom died." as for saruman, the books never say saruman took his staff (stupid pj.. ) nor did the witch king incident occur, as gandlaf was actually stronger  o, the usfulness of having every loved passage, poem, and song marked in the book!
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05-25-2005, 08:08 PM
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#19 |
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Dreamweaver
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go...
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Is Anyone Out There?!?!?!!??!?!
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
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06-04-2005, 01:24 PM
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#20 |
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Hobbit
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In your head
Posts: 21
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I dunno about the book, but in the movie it shows Gandalf catching his sword and his staff in Moria as he fell with the Balrog
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