Cowardice?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

It's the Silm forum. We can go with six. And while we're at it, lets go with Gil-galad as the son of Fingon.

[Curufin]

No can do. He's Orodreth's.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

<whining>But I don't *like* Orodreth!</whining>

Honestly, the dude was weak. Think of how happy you were to see him taking charge when Finrod left. Why? Because he's a loser. Couldn't hold Minas Tirith against Sauron. Couldn't hold Nargothrond against anyone, least of all you and your brother.

Then one of the slayers of Sauron is his son? Not that sons are always like their fathers but there is almost no resemblance between Orodreth and Gil-galad. They hardly even seem like cousins, regardless of the times removed.

In fact, I'm not sure Orodreth is even Noldor. I think he was possibly adopted by Finrod in some sort of First-age big brother program.

[Curufin]

Finarfin, you mean?

Finrod doesn't have any kids.

No, I don't like him either, but he sure would have done a lot better if not for Túrin.

[Gordis]

Gil-Galad can't be Fingon's son, because he would then become King after Finrod, never Fingon's nephew Orodreth.

By the way, I don't like GG at all. It was just mean how he used the Numenoreans back in SA 1700, keeping them in the dark about the Rings. And he was whining for help long before that (see Aldarion and Erendis). He was too weak to rule the Noldor in the Second age: he was High King, he could have prevented the Mirdain from befriending Annatar and chasing away Galadriel. But like his father Orodreth, he let the rebels be. All the guy managed to achieve was to die valiantly.

[Aikanáro]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Strange at it would seem, Morgoth was the lesser of two evils here, eh? They couldn't let anyone they could take on have the silmarils, but they didn't mind letting someone they couldn't defeat like Morgoth hang on to daddy's jewellery.

Sorry for the late reply here, but - wasn't that just sensible of them? I mean, if the six ( ) of them had just rushed in, tried to attack Morgoth right away after Fëanor died - it would have been valiant, sure, but in a suicidal way, it wouldn't have got them anywhere. I don't think they were biding their time because they didn't intend to fulfil their oath, or because Morgoth having the Silmarils meant at least they knew where they were (though, in hindsight, we can point that out) but rather because they hadn't come up with a plausible plan of action yet. Can't really fault them for that.

Once retrieving the Silmarilli wouldn't necessarily have involved an impossibly crazy plan, they went for it. Makes sense.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

In fact, I'm not sure Orodreth is even Noldor. I think he was possibly adopted by Finrod in some sort of First-age big brother program.

Sorry. Just found that hilarious. Poor Orodreth.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Finarfin, you mean?

Finrod doesn't have any kids.

No, I don't like him either, but he sure would have done a lot better if not for Túrin.

No, I mean Finrod. They're brothers, right?

[Curufin]

Oh, yes, I see what you meant. Misread your post. Sorry!

[DARKastheRAIN]

Did they go after the other two Silmarils when Lúthien and Beren proved reclaiming them by stealth was possible? Nooo, they went for the easy prey, destroying the only other strong Elven kingdom, Beleriand, in the process.

Except for that time when Maedhros mustered together all the Noldor and Men and Dwarves that he could convince to help him and lead an assult against Morgoth that despite all the careful planning and seeming potential of it working ended in them getting their asses kicked and the destruction of most the remaining Elven strongholds and the sons of Feanor being reduced to wandering as leaves before the wind.

But yeah, that was such a minor, unimportant event in the Silmarillion that I can see how it slipped your mind.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by DARKastheRAIN

Except for that time when Maedhros mustered together all the Noldor and Men and Dwarves that he could convince to help him and lead an assult against Morgoth that despite all the careful planning and seeming potential of it working ended in them getting their asses kicked and the destruction of most the remaining Elven strongholds and the sons of Feanor being reduced to wandering as leaves before the wind.

But yeah, that was such a minor, unimportant event in the Silmarillion that I can see how it slipped your mind.

No, as it happens, it did not slip my mind. But my point still stands. Lúthien and Beren proved the Silmarils could be regained from Morgoth. But the brothers weren't at that point very interested in further bravery, were they? They demanded the silmarils back from Dior (probably were too ashamed to demand it from Lúthien), and when their demands weren't met, they didn't mind killing off a good portion of the Sindar, and destroyed what was about the only 'allied' kingdom still standing in the fight against the one they should have been fighting: Morgoth.

Sorry, but I don't see how their previous valiance in battle justifies or excuses the slaughter they purpetrated afterwards.

[DARKastheRAIN]

^but what you asked was "Did they go after the other two Silmarils when Lúthien and Beren proved reclaiming them by stealth was possible?"

The answer is "Yes, they did."

[DARKastheRAIN]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Part of the reason the oath bit them so hard is because they tried to defy it.

Watch it!

You can call them Evil, Cruel, Murderer, and Kinslayer to your heart's content, but Oathbreaker is a name I won't take from you. Not after all they suffered to keep that stupid oath

And I don't think Coward is a fair name either. Tolkien himself said that all the children of Finwe were fearless and hardy of heart. Celegorm and Curufin's problem was their perception of what was and wasn't worth their valour.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by DARKastheRAIN

^but what you asked was "Did they go after the other two Silmarils when Lúthien and Beren proved reclaiming them by stealth was possible?"

The answer is "Yes, they did."

Yet the sons of Fëanor did proudly and threateningly demand the silmaril back from Doriath before going into that last battle. This less than tactful demand cost them pretty much all aid from Doriath. But I'll concede that Thingol was as much at fault here as the Fëanorians.

[Willow Oran]

I suspect they were just as unlikely to get any aid from Doriath whether they made that demand or not, thanks to Celegorm and Curufin's actions. Same reason they didn't get full support from Nargothrond. Which does make one wonder: Maedhros had been sneakier about it and named the alliance after Fingon and had him extend the invitation to join it, would there have been as much resistance from Doriath and Nargothrond?

Don't forget though that it was the combined treachery from the men and broken timing resulting from Maedhros' forces being delayed and Gwindor being goaded into charging early that ultimately cost them the battle.

If we're looking at issues of cowardice and failure to confront Morgoth, the Nirnaeth really is the key turning point to be looking at. It's the big attempt by a unified Noldo force to actually fulfill the oath and it comes very close. Morgoth also suffered huge losses in that battle.

Afterwards, however, it seems like everybody loses interest in any offensive actions against the real enemy.

There was a really interesting tid-bit, and I forget where I read it, so it was probably just creative extrapolation, saying that the message Tuor carried for Ulmo wasn't just a warning to evacuate, but a cue to attack Morgoth now, before he can fully rebuild his forces.
If that were the case, and had they acted immediately, it might have been enough to prevent the Sack of Nargothrond and could have weakend Morgoth significantly.

[DARKastheRAIN]

^sounds very extrapolated to me. Gondolin alone couldn't have done much more than go out with a bang if they'd attacked. Angband was too strong to be overthrown by the Noldor. And it wasn't their doom to take Morgoth out anyway. It definately doesn't sound like advice Ulmo would give. "The true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and comes from the sea" remember. If Ulmo had wanted them to attack Morgoth he would have said so.