Cowardice?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Ok, so what was up with the sons of Feanor (btw, how do we do the dots/accents/etc. here?) not once obeying their father's last words:

Then his sons raised up their father and bore him back towards Mithrim. But as they drew near to Eithel Sirion and were upon the upward path to the pass over the mountains, Fëanor bade them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father.

Cowardice?

A man and an elf-maiden accomplished a part of the deed not one of them ever once dared try, even though they swore an oath to relentlessly do so.

[Curufin]

As for the accents, open your character map - it'll tell you the ALT+ code that you need to get them, or you can just select them from there. I'm on a laptop, so I generally just select them and copy.

As for the rest:



Were you TRYING to be inflammatory?

No, it wasn't cowardice. And they did try to get the Silmarils. Throughout the entire book they're fighting Morgoth in some way or another, and they cause dissent in Nargothrond, kill Dior and co. in Menegroth, and attack Elwing and co. at Sirion. All in an attempt to regain the Silmarils.

Why didn't they attack Melkor right on? Because it was foolhardy. Fëanor died without even facing Morgoth, Fingolfin was killed (although he did a decent job of it), and Fingon was pounded into the ground facing Morgoth and his allies.

In Of Beren and Lúthien, it states:

For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her hand to Celegorm. [b]Thus they would advance their power, and become the mightiest of the princes of the Noldor. And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by craft or war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands. Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond; and Celegorm sent messengers to Thingol urging his suit.

In other words, they - quite wisely - wanted to get as much power as possible behind them (for good reason) before they began an assault on Morgoth. I think this is quite a reasonable plan.

As for Beren and Lúthien getting the Silmaril - well, that's a bit different. That was their Doom, and they were surely helped in this matter by the unseen hand of Eru. I don't think Eru was going to help out the Sons of Fëanor much, especially after the Kinslaying and their Oath...And don't forget, Lúthien WAS half-Maia.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Curufin

In other words, they - quite wisely - wanted to get as much power as possible behind them (for good reason) before they began an assault on Morgoth. I think this is quite a reasonable plan.

But they sure ruined any chance of getting as much people to support them by alienating and/or killing pretty much every other Elven king and realm while they were at it, though. I don't think anyone in their right mind would think that Thingol and Melian would have been thrilled to see their only daughter in a forced marriage to one that helped kill his [Thingol's] brother's people and let his [Celegorm's] own king perish in some dungeon. Not exactly stellar leader material, that.

Did they go after the other two Silmarils when Lúthien and Beren proved reclaiming them by stealth was possible? Nooo, they went for the easy prey, destroying the only other strong Elven kingdom, Beleriand, in the process. And you'd think they'd learned their lesson after that, nooo, they tried the same thing again and destroyed friend and kin at the Mouth of the Sirion. With allies like this, who needs enemies?

[Curufin]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would think that Thingol and Melian would have been thrilled to see their only daughter in a forced marriage to one that helped kill his brother's people and let his own king perish in some dungeon.

Not quite sure what you're referring to here...

Finrod was never their king...and which brother?

And they didn't always make the wisest choices, perhaps, but they weren't cowards...

[Earniel]

Hm, may have muddled up a few pronouns there. Let me attempt to clarify.

You quoted a piece of text to support that the sons of Fëanor were wise to wait with attacking Morgoth until they got more power. The bit you quoted mentioned Curufin and Celegorm keeping Lúthien captive and exort her father so Celegorm could marry her.

I assumed you used this quote to show some of the manners in which the sons of Fëanor attempted to gain importance and support. I wanted to point out that this was not the best way to go about it. Forcing Lúthien into marriage would not gain them Thingol's favour. Especially not since the sons of Fëanor were implicated in the Kin-slaying at Alqualondë, where Thingol's brother Olwë was king, if I recall correctly.

And while Finrod may not have been the King of Celegorm and Curufin, he was the one in whose house they lived. So maybe host is a better word. The matter still stand they failed him rather badly. These are not the fellows I'd want in charge in the battle against Morgoth.

They may not have been cowards (much, since Curufin's and Celegorm's attack on Lúthien and Beren can't be called brave either) but they certainly were pig-headed idiots in making important decisions!

[Curufin]

Ah, yes, sorry, I misunderstood.

Yes, the quote was made for that reason, but more to show that they weren't just sitting idle. Plans were made to retrieve the Silmarils, they just didn't want to leap in 'where angels fear to tread', if you will, seeing how it had cost their father, uncle and cousin to do so. They wanted to take their time and be successful when they finally attempted to do so. It was a rather wise military maneuver, really.

But you're right that they didn't go about it in the best of ways. I've always thought that it would have been better for everyone involved if Lúthien had just fallen for Celegorm in the first place (come on, he's a son of Fëanor - talented, good looking, important, and if you marry him you don't have to die... Silly Lúthien), but since that didn't happen, they saw that as the best way to conquer Doriath. Note that their first attempt to do so was not by force, and warning was made from the very beginning by the sons of Fëanor to Thingol that requesting the Silmaril was a bad idea.

It was as much Thingol's fault (what happened) as Celegorm and Curufin's. It was Thingol who re-awakened the Oath - Celegorm and Curufin were living happily and peacefully at Nargothrond before that:

'It is plain that Thingol desires your death; but it seems that this doom goes beyond his purpose, and that the Oath of Fëanor is again at work. For the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred, and he that even names them in desire moves a greater power from slumber; and the sons of Fëanor would lay all the Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them. And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls; and though I, Finarfin's son, am King, they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need, but I fear that they will show neither love nor mercy to you, if your quest be told.'

But as for Celegorm and Curufin - I still wouldn't say they were cowardly. Cautious, perhaps - wanting to have as much in their favour as possible, perhaps - but that's not cowardly; that's wise.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Ah, yes, sorry, I misunderstood.

No worries, perhaps I just should have been clearer from the start. I added a bit more names to my first post to make it clearer.

They wanted to take their time and be successful when they finally attempted to do so. It was a rather wise military maneuver, really.

I do wonder how much they were still interested in obtaining the Silmarils from Morgoth. It's been a while since I've read the Silmarillion, but I had the impression they were all pretty much content to stick to their own realms in a watchful, waiting sort of peace. And using that peace to maybe upgrade the realm's security and prosperity, but not the army.

But you're right that they didn't go about it in the best of ways. I've always thought that it would have been better for everyone involved if Lúthien had just fallen for Celegorm in the first place (come on, he's a son of Fëanor - talented, good looking, important, and if you marry him you don't have to die... Silly Lúthien), but since that didn't happen, they saw that as the best way to conquer Doriath.

And I've always thought things would have been better for everyone involved if Celegorm was likable in the first place. Silly him.

It was as much Thingol's fault (what happened) as Celegorm and Curufin's. It was Thingol who re-awakened the Oath - Celegorm and Curufin were living happily and peacefully at Nargothrond before that:

Well, Thingol is a whole 'nother can of worms all on his xenophobic own, so I'm not going to comment much on him here.

But even if Thingol did rekindle the Oath and all bad after-effects, how well does it speak for the sons of Fëanor that they were very content and peaceful to let Morgoth have all three Silmarils, but furious if one Elf or Men happened to steal one?

But as for Celegorm and Curufin - I still wouldn't say they were cowardly. Cautious, perhaps - wanting to have as much in their favour as possible, perhaps - but that's not cowardly; that's wise.

Military sound and all that such perhaps. But rather morally unsound. I've got a few things to say about people who'd force people into marriage to gain power and it ain't nice things.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

No worries, perhaps I just should have been clearer from the start. I added a bit more names to my first post to make it clearer.


I do wonder how much they were still interested in obtaining the Silmarils from Morgoth. It's been a while since I've read the Silmarillion, but I had the impression they were all pretty much content to stick to their own realms in a watchful, waiting sort of peace. And using that peace to maybe upgrade the realm's security and prosperity, but not the army.


And I've always thought things would have been better for everyone involved if Celegorm was likable in the first place. Silly him.


Well, Thingol is a whole 'nother can of worms all on his xenophobic own, so I'm not going to comment much on him here.

But even if Thingol did rekindle the Oath and all bad after-effects, how well does it speak for the sons of Fëanor that they were very content and peaceful to let Morgoth have all three Silmarils, but furious if one Elf or Men happened to steal one?


Military sound and all that such perhaps. But rather morally unsound. I've got a few things to say about people who'd force people into marriage to gain power and it ain't nice things.

I don't have time to reply to this properly before I have to leave for class () but just a few comments:

Celegorm is perfectly likable, thank you. I like him, anyway. And I also like to speculate just how amazing their kids could have been...1/4 Maiar, 1/4 Sindar, and half Noldor - of the House of Fëanor. Awesomeness!

Thingol...how do I hate him, let me count the ways...maybe a thread on Thingol should be forthcoming...

And, and I'll comment more on this later - I don't think that the SoF were at all content to let Morgoth have the Silmarils - but they just didn't see how they were going to go about retrieving them. I think they were a bit at a loss...whereas a man or an Elf they could defeat...

More later!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Of course I was trying to be inflammatory.

But I really would like to see some defense of these guys.

Part of the reason the oath bit them so hard is because they tried to defy it. They tried to have their cake and eat it, too. (I hate that expression but it fits.) What they should have done is what their father did and asked them to do: go after Morgoth full-bore and get those jewels back.

They decided first to try and trick Morgoth with a fake parley and then to be prudent and set up a defense. Wise? Was it really? Look at the results. At least if they went directly at Morgoth from the start they'd have kept him off-balance until they were dead. Did any of them die a better death than their father and uncle Fingolfin? Did any of them die a better death than Finrod or Fingon?

They all still died but ignominiously when they could have gone out with a blaze of glory like their father, uncle, and cousins. For what? A few decades or centuries more of life in Middle Earth. What a waste.

And when they (2 of them) found that Beren, Finrod, and a small elite force were planning to infiltrate Angband to recover a Silmaril, do they join in, in accordance with their oath? Nope. What about when they found that Beren and Luthien succeeded, did that motivate them to try the same? Still no. Wouldn't want to risk anything to regain those jewels.

You have the floor...

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Of course I was trying to be inflammatory.

But I really would like to see some defense of these guys.

Well, you've come to the right place.

Part of the reason the oath bit them so hard is because they tried to defy it. They tried to have their cake and eat it, too. (I hate that expression but it fits.) What they should have done is what their father did and asked them to do: go after Morgoth full-bore and get those jewels back.

I don't think they tried to defy it; even at the very end they knew that they couldn't defy it in the end - read the conversation of Maglor and Maedhros, when I think Maglor really wanted to. They were simply biding their time, in order to get it right. They wanted to succeed. And they didn't want to die. I don't see what's so strange about that.

They decided first to try and trick Morgoth with a fake parley and then to be prudent and set up a defense. Wise? Was it really? Look at the results. At least if they went directly at Morgoth from the start they'd have kept him off-balance until they were dead. Did any of them die a better death than their father and uncle Fingolfin? Did any of them die a better death than Finrod or Fingon?

Yes, but you're looking at this with 20/20 hindsight. They didn't know these things. They didn't know that their deaths would be just as bad if they were careful as if they had just jumped in and gotten pounded to a pulp like Fingon. They had seen that strategy fail, so they attempted something else. Yes, it turned out that they gained nothing by it (well, perhaps - Maedhros and Maglor did get the last two Silmarils, although it did turn out badly for them), but they didn't know that at the time.

They all still died but ignominiously when they could have gone out with a blaze of glory like their father, uncle, and cousins. For what? A few decades or centuries more of life in Middle Earth. What a waste.

See above.

And when they (2 of them) found that Beren, Finrod, and a small elite force were planning to infiltrate Angband to recover a Silmaril, do they join in, in accordance with their oath? Nope. What about when they found that Beren and Luthien succeeded, did that motivate them to try the same? Still no. Wouldn't want to risk anything to regain those jewels.

They didn't want to go on a suicide mission, no. Beren got lucky, and had Doom and a half-maia on his side. What were the chances of Beren and Finrod succeeding? A zillion to one. Astronomical. You can't blame them for thinking they had a better chance not going on this suicide mission, but instead trying to strengthen their forces for a hard attack at the end.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

And just how did they know, at the beginning, that force was futile? Because dad got killed? When they came up in force behind him the enemies fled! They had them on the run.

Your assertion is that they tried another method. Mine is that their method was a half-measure as regards their oath. It is stated many times in the texts that when they finally made moves against those holding Silmarils it was because the oath awoke and drove them. The clear implication is that they were NOT being driven by it at other times.

Let me put it this way. When they all arrived at the Halls of Mandos, do you think their father told them: "Nice work, boys. Great job. Thanks for doing your best?" I can't see it.

On the other hand, this isn't so much of a criticism of Maedhros or Maglor because it is pretty clear that they were reluctant from very early on based on principle, not on fear, and that they despised the wicked oath for much of their stay in Middle Earth. I've not seen any good reasons for the behavior of the other sons other than strategic ones.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

And just how did they know, at the beginning, that force was futile? Because dad got killed? When they came up in force behind him the enemies fled! They had them on the run.

Your assertion is that they tried another method. Mine is that their method was a half-measure as regards their oath. It is stated many times in the texts that when they finally made moves against those holding Silmarils it was because the oath awoke and drove them. The clear implication is that they were NOT being driven by it at other times.

Let me put it this way. When they all arrived at the Halls of Mandos, do you think their father told them: "Nice work, boys. Great job. Thanks for doing your best?" I can't see it.

On the other hand, this isn't so much of a criticism of Maedhros or Maglor because it is pretty clear that they were reluctant from very early on based on principle, not on fear, and that they despised the wicked oath for much of their stay in Middle Earth. I've not seen any good reasons for the behavior of the other sons other than strategic ones.

I think that on the whole, they were held back a bit by Maedhros and Maglor's unwillingness. They were the two oldest, so probably had some power of sway over the others (to varying degrees, of course).

As for me and Celegorm, I think we waited because a) we wanted to bide our time and make sure that we could win and b) we knew the oath was futile and chances were we'd die anyway. We had to stick to the Oath, but that didn't mean we thought we could succeed on it. And there were other things we wanted to do first.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Celegorm is perfectly likable, thank you. I like him, anyway. And I also like to speculate just how amazing their kids could have been...1/4 Maiar, 1/4 Sindar, and half Noldor - of the House of Fëanor. Awesomeness!

He's your brother, your opinion in the matter doesn't count.

Thingol...how do I hate him, let me count the ways...maybe a thread on Thingol should be forthcoming...

There have been some discussions on him, if I recall correctly. Might be interesting to do a search. Or start a new thread if you like, since I reckon the other threads may have become a bit dated.

And, and I'll comment more on this later - I don't think that the SoF were at all content to let Morgoth have the Silmarils - but they just didn't see how they were going to go about retrieving them. I think they were a bit at a loss...whereas a man or an Elf they could defeat...

Strange at it would seem, Morgoth was the lesser of two evils here, eh? They couldn't let anyone they could take on have the silmarils, but they didn't mind letting someone they couldn't defeat like Morgoth hang on to daddy's jewellery.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

He's your brother, your opinion in the matter doesn't count.

Bah!

There have been some discussions on him, if I recall correctly. Might be interesting to do a search. Or start a new thread if you like, since I reckon the other threads may have become a bit dated.

Perhaps I will search for one. Really can't stand the guy. And it's not just my Noldor blood that makes me hate him...

Strange at it would seem, Morgoth was the lesser of two evils here, eh? They couldn't let anyone they could take on have the silmarils, but they didn't mind letting someone they couldn't defeat like Morgoth hang on to daddy's jewellery.

No, by far the greater of two evils, but also simply by far the greater. The SoF weren't morons - they knew that even all seven (er, six) of them together couldn't defeat Morgoth in hand-to-hand combat. Remember, Beren and Lúthien didn't do this either - and I don't think any of the SoF were pretty enough to enchant Morgoth into a sleep-trance. But as long as Morgoth had them, they weren't going anywhere, so they could take their time to come up with a good plan.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Curufin

- and I don't think any of the SoF were pretty enough to enchant Morgoth into a sleep-trance.

Yeah, and Morgoth didn't have a pretty daughter they could kidnap and force into a marriage to pressure her dad. Now that would have been some tale! But somehow I doubt Curufin or Celegorm would be so... eager about pulling that trick.

But as long as Morgoth had them, they weren't going anywhere, so they could take their time to come up with a good plan.

So as I said, him having the silmarils was the lesser evil.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Yeah, and Morgoth didn't have a pretty daughter they could kidnap and force into a marriage to pressure her dad. Now that would have been some tale! But somehow I doubt Curufin or Celegorm would be so... eager about pulling that trick.

Wouldn't that have been something!

So as I said, him having the silmarils was the lesser evil.

Perhaps. But only perhaps.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Yes, but you're looking at this with 20/20 hindsight. They didn't know these things. They didn't know that their deaths would be just as bad if they were careful as if they had just jumped in and gotten pounded to a pulp like Fingon.

And who was it, who by his dying insight saw this, but didn't warn them and didn't release them from their futile oath?

[Curufin]

I don't know, who? *innocence*

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Then his sons raised up their father and bore him back towards Mithrim. But as they drew near to Eithel Sirion and were upon the upward path to the pass over the mountains, Fëanor bade them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father.

He not only didn't release them, he bound them to it and added the burden of vengeance. Sad. They accomplished neither.

[Curufin]

Curufin and his six - er, five - brothers wish to make no comment on this at this time.