Evil in Middle-Earth

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

This subject has been touched on in other threads but I thought (well RtB suggested) that I should open a thread about Evil in Middle-Earth.
What is evil and what makes a person evil.
I think a person is evil if they commit evil deeds and do not repent. What does everybody else think.

[Beren3000]

To my mind, a person is evil if and only if they can clearly distinguish between "wrong" and "right" and have the full choice of which path to take and then purportedly and knowingly choose to act "wrong".

In Middle-Earth evil is emanating from an external source, the devil incarnate: Morgoth in the First Age and Sauron in the Second and Third. However, evil is also shown as tricky and often attacks people when they think they're at the top of their awareness. This appears when Sam, on the very brink of Mordor, much aware of the Ring's evil, envisions himself as Lord Samwise the Great, etc...
It often also pries on people's weaknesses: Fëanor's pride and Eöl's grudge against the Noldor, etc...
So to sum up, according to Tolkien (and Christianity), evil doesn't come from within people, it infests them.

[brownjenkins]

i'd say the root of evil is thinking exclusively of yourself and not others... and when it happens inadvertantly, a lack of repentance as TD said... lot's of gray space in there though

[BeardofPants]

It's VERY grey. I don't think of characters such as Eol, Feanor, or even Smeagol, as evil per se. They all had redeeming qualities. Evil in middle-earth, for me, would be mostly limited to characters such as Sauron, Morgoth, and Saruman, who are overtly evil, not just victims of happenstance, or pride.

[Beren3000]

EXCUSE me! If Feanor gets to have redeeming qualities, then why can't Saruman? The dude was wise and learned in lore (surely that counts for something). He just fell because he sought too much knowledge.

[Attalus]

Sorry, I believe that Fëanor was quite evil for the evil deeds that he did, chiefly the Kinslaying, and Eöl, too, though not to that degree. I would also add Fëanor's loathesome sons, Celegorm and Curufin, who kidnapped Lúthien and tried to wed her (to Celegorm) against her will, to the short list of evil Elves. I hasten to add that they were not totally evil, as JRRT wrote that no character in his writings was totally evil, for that would be the void: no life, no strength, no wisdom, though perverted. But evil is as evil does. Not as evil as Morgoth or Sauron, of couse.

[Haradrim]

well if evil is defined by the choices it makes then how could the rign be evil. It hadsa mind but it couldnt do good it wasnt made to. Nobodey reply to that o causde I dont want this turning into my old thread. I think evil is defined by your choices. Everyone starts out good and eventually by making evil chgoices becomes evil. No one is born itno it.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

EXCUSE me! If Feanor gets to have redeeming qualities, then why can't Saruman?

he had good taste in pipeweed

you have a point though Attalus, i've even ventured a few defenses of melkor in the past... i think souls who are very passionate about life and knowledge of it can get easily caught up in 'evil', though there are certainly ones like gandalf, who was able to temper his desires with compassion

i've mentioned before in feanor's defense that one can't discount the loss of his mother and later his father in the events that followed... not necessarily a justification, but a reason behind his 'evil'

celegorm and curufin are a bit tougher... they were some pretty nasty elf-types

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'd say the root of evil is thinking exclusively of yourself and not others... and when it happens inadvertantly, a lack of repentance as TD said... lot's of gray space in there though

I'd agree with you bj, if we were talking about evil in our world and not in Middle Earth. But since we are talking about Middle Earth, I will have to agree with the following:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

So to sum up, according to Tolkien (and Christianity), evil doesn't come from within people, it infests them.

One could even go so far as to say that evil in Middle Earth originates from Iluvatar himself. Melkor was the first to stray away from the right part, and he is the one who has stained Arda and its inhabitants with evil. But Melkor was also created by Iluvatar. So what is Melkor? A fallen angelic being, but was he destined to fall?

If no one is evil to begin with, what then made Melkor fall so deep?

This is an old discussion, but not the less interesting!

Edit: Short list of evil Elves, if I were to put anyone on that list it would be Celegorm and Curufin, and maybe Eöl. The reason that I hesitate to put the C bros on the list is that we don't get to know very much about them. We know that they were close in friendship with Aredhel in Valinor. Shouldn't that count for some good qualities?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not really, it could just show Aredhel bad choice in people like Eol.

[Haradrim]

good point T.D. can anyone think of evil hobbits?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The Sackville-Bagginses apart from Lobeilia at the end

[Haradrim]

I wouldnt call them evil just wicked annoying and stupid. really really really really stupid.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Tell Bilbo that they aren't evil!

[Haradrim]

yeah well evil is only in the eye of the beholder. So Bilbo would think that. But can anyone think anf any truly evil evil hobbits?

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Artanis

One could even go so far as to say that evil in Middle Earth originates from Iluvatar himself. Melkor was the first to stray away from the right part, and he is the one who has stained Arda and its inhabitants with evil. But Melkor was also created by Iluvatar. So what is Melkor? A fallen angelic being, but was he destined to fall?

If no one is evil to begin with, what then made Melkor fall so deep?

I beg to differ. Illuvatar created free will for the Ainur (and later for Elves and Men) it's from this free will that evil sprouted. So you might say that Illuvatar allowed the existence of evil but NOT created it.

[Haradrim]

Well what if Melkor was just misunderstood. He thoiught a little diffrrntly so the others labeled him evil and smote him. Then he wanted his own race but they said no so he made his own from eres which was hard and they did what he wnted. So tye label him evil. Then Sauron joins him and Gandalf labels him evil and rhen Sauruman joins Sauron and instantly he is evil. They were all just oushed to the limit. If you ask me its the Ainur and Maiar,'s fault.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So you are basically saying that orcs aren't evil. Balrogs aren't evil for they were at the service of Saroun, Morgoth and Saruman (not Balrogs).

[Haradrim]

yep they are all just misunderstood. Its just too sad. All those poor creatures. Just misunderstood. (sigh)

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I beg to differ. Illuvatar created free will for the Ainur (and later for Elves and Men) it's from this free will that evil sprouted. So you might say that Illuvatar allowed the existence of evil but NOT created it.

i don't want to debate free will

but i'm curious, i hear many claim the free will argument yet can't think of anything tolkien that says illuvatar created free (though i certainly may be wrong)... what do you base this upon?