Why did Saruman attack Rohan?

[Gordis]

It is a bit puzzling why Saruman attacked Rohan when he did.

He has prepared a strong army, both on Sauron's orders and to reach his own goals. He tried to capture the Ring, fully expecting the two hobbits captured at Path Galen to have it. But he was cheated - his orcs were destroyed and the hobbits escaped. He knew he would never get the ring now.

Then suddenly Saruman attacks Rohan. When Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli ride to Edoras, they see smoke rising at the fords of Isen - the war has begun.

But why did Saruman attack so early? Was it on Sauron's orders? But wouldn't it have been better to attack Rohan and Minas Tirith simultaneously?

Even reckoned as a lord and captain Saruman has grown very strong. He threatens the Men of Rohan and draws off their help from Minas Tirith, even as the main blow is approaching from the East.

Moreover, Sauron was not yet ready to start the war - he only took this decision when he saw Aragorn via the Palantir.

And if Saruman attacked on his own, why did he do it? Theoden was still under his sway, held in check by Grima. Saruman faced the possibility of defeat - imagine what would have been if Rohan asked for Gondor's help and got it? The alliance worked both ways. And he also risked Sauron's wrath if he attacked too eartly.
So- why?

[rohirrim TR]

I always thought it was Sauron's orders, strategically he would of loved it if Gondor had sent aid to Rohan. Then he coud of pounced and trounced all over Minas Tirith. As for what Saruman was thinking who knows? something between overconfidence and shortsightedness I would guess.

edit: then again, he had spent a lot of time trying break down Rohan from within, the ents were a wildcard a fluke really; and if it wasn't for Eomer's loyalty he probably would have taken Rohan.

[The Telcontarion]

Well I simply thing that Saruman was not counting on the ents involvement and had them totally out of his reckoning (Gandalf said as much). If it were not for them Saruman, if he did not take Rohan and sack Edoras, would at the very least severly cripple the Eorlingas; no aid would be forthcoming to Minas Tirith from the sons of Eorl.

Doubtless this is what Saruman and his Dark lord had intended.

[The Gaffer]

I agree with El Tel: without the Ents' intervention, it would have been a very different story. It might have seemed like a tactical masterstroke to draw off support from Minas Tirith.

He had to attack well before the Minas Tirith attack or else the Rohirrim would have been long gone to the Pelennor.

[Earniel]

There is possibility, that if Saruman's army was ready he went along with his own plans of expansion, not minding whether Sauron was ready or not. Although Saruman had fallen under the sway of Sauron, he was still convinced of his own power and cunning.

He could also have hoped, by starting the war, that he could still ensnare the hobbits and the ring they carried. He knew his troops were destroyed at the edge of Fangorn. If he could conquer Rohan, he had a wider search area.

And if he had found out it was the Rohirrim who had destroyed his orcs, then maybe they had the ring, and then it was for his own sake to act as soon as possible.

[The Gaffer]

Good point. My memory is a bit hazy. At the stage of The Voice of Saruman, did Saruman still assume that Merry and Pippin had the Ring? I think that was the case.

He would fear that Theoden might take possession of it.

[Valandil]

I'd say he more feared that Eomer would have it than Theoden - or else someone like Aragorn or Gandalf. Theoden was heavily under his sway, and Eomer had led the attack on his Orcs.

Interesting thread and thoughts...

Remember though, Saruman's attack on Rohan did not begin at Helm's Deep. The First Battle of the Fords of Isen was fought 3 days before Eomer slew the Orc band - eight days before the attack on Helm's Deep.

I think Saruman started when he thought maybe the Ring might be on its way to him. He had Theoden under his sway, and had alienated him from his most effective friends. He first managed to destroy an army of Rohan, slaying the King's own son Theodred - and still the King did not react against him. It must have seemed easy as pie, even without the Ring.

So - the attack on Helm's Deep was the next logical step - maybe made more pressing by Eomer's destruction of the Orcs (and possible capture of the Ring). But there were actually TWO things he hadn't counted on:

1. Gandalf's arrival at Edoras and restoration of Theoden, and the subsequent rallying of reinforcements for Helm's Deep.
2. The Ents (and Huorns), as has been mentioned. Though we at Entmoot love to thump our chests about this one!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I think he was establishing himself as a force to be dealt with. He had an inside man in Rohan, which Sauron did not. His Uruk-hai were better creatures than the Mordor Orcs, and his war machine was ready. If he could overrun Rohan, maybe the West would have to negotiate with him to contest with Sauron. Maybe Sauron would give him a governorship. Either way, he's coming up as a player, and there's still the chance he could get hold of the Ring (or the person who had it.)

It's not unreasonable to suppose Denethor, for example, would argue that a treaty with Saruman beat a battle on both flanks. He could explain that he attacked Rohan because they were NOT interested in supporting Minas Tirith, and someone had to step in. Who would be left to contest the old smoothie's account? And the path up in Sauron's operation was cluttered with Nazgul. You have to do something that beats being immortal slaves to the boss.

He knew the Ents, and supposed them too passive to resist. Saruman is hasty, and they must have looked very uninvolved to him. And they would have been, too, except for the advocacy of Merry and Pippin.

So, not much on the down side, for him. Only losing could screw him up, and that would take some imagination to picture.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

So - the attack on Helm's Deep was the next logical step

The next logical step would be to take over Edoras, Rohan's capitol full of women and children, thus to demoralize the enemy, then attack the fortress.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Remember though, Saruman's attack on Rohan did not begin at Helm's Deep. The First Battle of the Fords of Isen was fought 3 days before Eomer slew the Orc band - eight days before the attack on Helm's Deep.

Ah. Clearly I didn't remember. But it's definitely a good point.

Originally Posted by Olmer

The next logical step would be to take over Edoras, Rohan's capitol full of women and children, thus to demoralize the enemy, then attack the fortress.

Except that they had to pass Helm's Deep to get to Edoras, and the people of Edoras could take refuge in Dunharrow. It might have been a more risky manouver than originally thought.

[Gordis]

Val's point is certainly good - I have also missed the date of the First battle at the Fords of Isen: Feb. 25, 3019. In fact it was even before Saruman's orcs had captured Merry and Pippin (Feb.26).

But after the first battle Saruman stayed his assault:

When Théodred was at last slain Saruman's commander (no doubt under orders) seemed satisfied for the time being, and Saruman made the mistake, fatal as it proved, of not immediately throwing in more forces and proceeding at once to a massive invasion of Westfold; though the valour of Grimbold and Elfhelm contributed to his delay. If the invasion of Westfold had begun five days earlier, there can be little doubt that the reinforcements from Edoras would never have come near Helm's Deep, but would have been surrounded and overwhelmed in the open plain; if indeed Edoras had not itself been attacked and captured before the arrival of Gandalf.

So, maybe the only objective of Saruman in this early period was to slay Theodred (who was Saruman's enemy)? Saruman could hope there would be no retribution from Rohan, as the King was his puppet.

The whole-scale invasion of Rohan begun only late on March 2, 3019 - the same day as Theoden had been healed.

The reinforcements with Éomer and the King himself set out in the afternoon of March the 2nd, but that night the Second Battle of the Fords was fought and lost, and the invasion of Rohan began.- UT

It looks like Saruman was looking in the Palantir, saw Gandalf healing Theoden and the army setting out from Edoras. Then he ordered his troops to march on Rohan.
Otherwise, I guess he would have waited for Sauron's orders - and the attacks at Rohan and Minas Tirith would have been coordinated.

Is this plausible?

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Val's point is certainly good - I have also missed the date of the First battle at the Fords of Isen: Feb. 25, 3019. In fact it was even before Saruman's orcs had captured Merry and Pippin (Feb.26).

But after the first battle Saruman stayed his assault:


So, maybe the only objective of Saruman in this early period was to slay Theodred (who was Saruman's enemy)? Saruman could hope there would be no retribution from Rohan, as the King was his puppet.

The whole-scale invasion of Rohan begun only late on March 2, 3019 - the same day as Theoden had been healed.


It looks like Saruman was looking in the Palantir, saw Gandalf healing Theoden and the army setting out from Edoras. Then he ordered his troops to march on Rohan.
Otherwise, I guess he would have waited for Sauron's orders - and the attacks at Rohan and Minas Tirith would have been coordinated.

Is this plausible?

Sounds plausible to me...

[CAB]

Saruman had a tremendous advantage over Rohan as long as he maintained control over its king. In his mind, that time was probably running short. Theoden's people had shown remarkable loyalty to him, but it couldn't last forever. Saruman surely received reports of the unrest of Rohan's people and most importantly it's chief leaders under Theoden.

If Saruman delayed, and Theodred took over, he would have been dealing with a much more formidable Rohan. This may explain why Saruman's captain stopped the assault after Theodred's death.

I believe Saruman was initially waiting for Sauron's order to attack. If I remember correctly, Gandalf said that Grima's main task was to delay Rohan. With the removal of Theodred, Saruman was probably content to continue waiting. Of course, the possible presence of the Ring changed matters drastically.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Gordis

So, maybe the only objective of Saruman in this early period was to slay Theodred (who was Saruman's enemy)?

The battles of the fords of isen in UT makes it clear that a amin objective of the first one was to eliminate Theodred.

[ecthelion]

Many good reasons were posted. Here is another one.
Continuing the thought of sisterandcousinandaunt, that he was trying to establish himself as a power, I recall the invasion of poland in the II world war, and also the invasion of germany that closed the european war. When a weak enemy is conquered from both sides by two allies, the border will be where the two armies meet. In both cases they were rushing forward at full-speed, to cover as much ground as possible.
So saruman may have seen the fall of rohan and gondor as inevitable and easy, and he thought to gain as much as he could before sauron's armies arrived.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Many good reasons were posted. Here is another one.
Continuing the thought of sisterandcousinandaunt, that he was trying to establish himself as a power, I recall the invasion of poland in the II world war, and also the invasion of germany that closed the european war. When a weak enemy is conquered from both sides by two allies, the border will be where the two armies meet. In both cases they were rushing forward at full-speed, to cover as much ground as possible.
So saruman may have seen the fall of rohan and gondor as inevitable and easy, and he thought to gain as much as he could before sauron's armies arrived.

Good point. Saruman indeed had to prove his worth to Sauron even to remain Lord of Isengard, much less to become King of Rohan as well. Once Saruman was defeated, Sauron promised Isengard to the Mouth. Saruman may have felt his position vs. Sauron was insecure. Little did he know that Sauron was already aware of his double-dealings (see UT, the Hunt for the Ring). Once the nazgul came back and reported, Saruman became a looser.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Good point. Saruman indeed had to prove his worth to Sauron even to remain Lord of Isengard, much less to become King of Rohan as well. Once Saruman was defeated, Sauron promised Isengard to the Mouth. Saruman may have felt his position vs. Sauron was insecure. Little did he know that Sauron was already aware of his double-dealings (see UT, the Hunt for the Ring). Once the nazgul came back and reported, Saruman became a looser.

No, I don't think so. Saruman has had very good chances to put the whole Rohan under his control, thus to turn out to Sauron as a quite formidable ally, but the ally who will be at his side in the war with Gondor. Sauron was aware of this and, probably, never doubted Saruman's ability as a King of a little Kingdom Rohan, after all, he had allies as Harad, Khand.
Between this 2 very smart and cunning maiar it was not a partnership based on trust, both of them were well aware of other double-dealing, trying to outsmart each other like two scoundrels.

Saruman's mistake was to hold for a popular believe about the Ruling Ring , trying to obtain it covertly from Sauron . Meanwhile Sauron found this amusing and laughable instead of being distressed at such news.Obviously, the Ring was not as important into an establishment yourself as a World Ruler, as old lores were saying, and Saruman wasted his time chasing a wild goose, instead of building his strength from withim.This is what made him a looser.
What potential has a leader who in a short time can "grow" 10 000 strong fight-oriented soldiers? If it would be given more time to Saruman ...
He would show to Sauron who is who.

I forgot to mention that he already had the Ring of his own, which, for sertain, could be the first(but not the last) successfull result of his experimentation in finding the right formula for the Ring of Power . It did work on Grima, he was totally under his control, and I am sure that the "wild men"(where you can get an army of the "wild men"?) of Sauron's forces have been plain village people, who fell to his ring's spell. So CAB is right on the target, Saruman was trying to expand the territories of his dominion to raise up his military potential. He had all chances to succeed...but even the greatest are stumbling.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Saruman's mistake was to hold for a popular believe about the Ruling Ring , trying to obtain it covertly from Sauron . Meanwhile Sauron found this amusing and laughable instead of being distressed at such news.Obviously, the Ring was not as important into an establishment yourself as a World Ruler, as old lores were saying, and Saruman wasted his time chasing a wild goose, instead of building his strength from withim.This is what made him a looser.
What potential has a leader who in a short time can "grow" 10 000 strong fight-oriented soldiers? If it would be given more time to Saruman ...
He would show to Sauron who is who.

...you see, in LOTR Sauron was always afraid of the ring falling into the hands of someone who could use it, Saruman was such a one. When King Elessar revealed himself to Sauron in the palantir, he took this bold challenge as a sign that this was the ring bearer revealing himself to him - he ever in doubt at that time; attacking Gondor almost immediately. No, I think he was very concerned that Saruman might obtain the ring.

"Sauron found this amusing and laughable." Not at all.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

... in LOTR Sauron was always afraid of the ring falling into the hands of someone who could use it...

It's Gandalf's hearsay.But how HE knows what Sauron think or feel if he has never talked to him?
Unless if he lied to everyone in one way or another.

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

"Sauron found this amusing and laughable." Not at all.

It's what you think. Au contraire Tolkien has provided us with a suggestive statement.

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

When King Elessar revealed himself to Sauron in the palantir, he took this bold challenge as a sign that this was the ring bearer revealing himself to him - he ever in doubt at that time; attacking Gondor almost immediately.

Could you back up you words with a quote where it says that Sauron saw Aragorn as a ring-bearer?
Besides, the war strategic maneuvers have began long before Aragorn has decided to say "hello" to Sauron.
He, himself, saw that from the South already goes the fleet "upon Gondor".
Five days before that Denethor sent "The Red Arrow" to Theoden - a token of war and a plea for help.
So, Sauron was already on the move, Aragorn's revealing himself did not provoke a thing, maybe just hasten an urge to get even with this heir of the accursed crafty Numenorian, who managed to cut off his middle finger without touching others.