Crossing the Helcaraxe

[afro-elf]

It took Fingolfin's host 27 years to cross the Helcaraxe.

What did they eat?

What supplies of survival did they bring?

Was magic involved?

[Fat middle]

frozen lembas?

[Sween]

maybe they eat polar bears and penguins? seriously though were they really out there for 28 years?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, one of the things that I have always wondered about, was that the host was so large, stretching from front to back, that perhaps it took less time to cross for the first half, but a total of 27 years for the whole. I don't really know what kind of food that climate could offer, especially for that length of time. Interesting.

[Jonathan]

27 years? I skimmed through the Silmarillion, but I couldn't find any information of how long Fingolfin's march lasted.
Where does it say that they spent 27 years trying to cross the Helcaraxë?

[azalea]

It's so funny that you should start this thread today, because for some reason the word "Helcaraxe" has been in my mind today (I keep saying it in my mind, wondering if I'm pronouncing it correctly!
I think they must have had a lot of supplies, and perhaps did a lot of ice fishing. Is is possible that there were "messenger" types who would ride to get things that were needed? Obviously the nature of the elves was part of the reason for their survival during this: extraordinary physical condition, excellent survival abilities, etc.
I, too, didn't remember that it took 27 years! Yikes!

[Artanis]

Obviously the nature of the elves was part of the reason for their survival during this: extraordinary physical condition, excellent survival abilities, etc.

Do Elves need to eat as much as Humans? Is it possible for an Elf to starve to death? How then could Maedhros survive 24 years hanging from Thangorodrim?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Do Elves need to eat as much as Humans? Is it possible for an Elf to starve to death? How then could Maedhros survive 24 years hanging from Thangorodrim?

How do we know that he wasn't fed? What do you think happened to Dior's children when they were abandoned in the forest? Elves had to eat. They may not have been human, but they were humanoid.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
How do we know that he wasn't fed?

Well, he was hanging up out of reach of everyone. What do you think he did? Open his mouth and wait for a bug to fly in?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
How do we know that he wasn't fed? What do you think happened to Dior's children when they were abandoned in the forest? Elves had to eat. They may not have been human, but they were humanoid.

We don't know if Maedhros were fed, that's partly why I'm asking. So you're saying an Elf could die of starvation, if food was not available? I do not doubt Eluréd and ElurÃ*n starved in the forest, but we don't know if they actually died, or whether they died by other means than hunger.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Artanis
How then could Maedhros survive 24 years hanging from Thangorodrim?

24 years? What's wrong with the elves? They are marcihng across vast ices for 27 years and dingles of a cliff for 24 years.
It isn't mentioned in the Silmarillion how long Maedhros was held by Morgoth, so where from did you get 24 years?

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Jonathan
What's wrong with the elves?

Heh, heh, heh

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Well, he was hanging up out of reach of everyone. What do you think he did? Open his mouth and wait for a bug to fly in?

Well, his friendly captor could have fed him. He fed Hurin, didn't he?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Also, I would think that Morgoth's power could have kept him alive without food.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Jonathan
It isn't mentioned in the Silmarillion how long Maedhros was held by Morgoth, so where from did you get 24 years?

Someone, I think it was Inderjit Sanghera, got the number of years from 'Grey Annals' in HoME 11. Look in the 'Maedhros' torment' thread.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Someone, I think it was Inderjit Sanghera, got the number of years from 'Grey Annals' in HoME 11. Look in the 'Maedhros' torment' thread.

I really don't know where these years come from because I've got that book (The War of the Jewels). If Maedhros was captured in 1497, then hung from the wall in 1498 (year of the stars, which ends 1500), then rescued in the year of the sun 5... then that's only 7 years. Help me out on this one, please.

Are the years of the Stars considered Valinorian years and thus multiplied by 9+ years? Or, since they've left Valinor this doesn't count anymore. I'm really confused about this.

As far as the Noldor coming to ME... Feanor and the rest leave in 1497 (I suppose, earlier in the same year as Maedhros was captured). So, the path of the Helcaraxe would start the same year, I suppose. Then in 1500...

In this time Fingolfin and those that followed him crossed the grinding ice of Helkaraxe, and so came at last with great woe and loss into the North of Endar; and their hearts were filled with bitterness. And even as they set foot upon Middle-Earth, the ages of the Stars were ended, and the time of the Sun and Moon was begun, as is told in the Chronicles of Aman.

So, help me out here. I'm doing the math and only coming up with 3 years.

[Sparky]

I thought there were only 2 ways an elf could die-by weapon or from grief. This confuses me because I recall reading in the Sil that Turgon's wife (don't remember the name) died during the march across the Helcaraxe. How did this happen if elves can only die by weapons or grief?

27 years crossing the Helcaraxe? That's one hell of a long time! Well maybe not to elves since they're immortal. How big was the Helcaraxe anyway?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sparky
I thought there were only 2 ways an elf could die-by weapon or from grief. This confuses me because I recall reading in the Sil that Turgon's wife (don't remember the name) died during the march across the Helcaraxe. How did this happen if elves can only die by weapons or grief?

Those are two instances that are sighted in the Sil, but Turgon's wife was lost on the ice I assume by drowning in the sea. In the Athrabeth in Morgoth's Ring, Finrod lists a whole slew of ways that Elves have died. Also I think in Laws and Customs of the Eldar, it states that Elves could endure great pain and injury, but they could not withstand violent assaults upon their structures. That does not neccessarily have to mean by weopons.

Finrod also speaks in the Athrabeth about how the Elves drew their sustenance from Arda Marred, and so that tells me that they eat. Was eating crucial for their lives? I would say so. They were flesh and blood creatures, not robots.

Another thing, Tolkien says that the elves were biologically the same as Men.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Also I think in Laws and Customs of the Eldar, it states that Elves could endure great pain and injury, but they could not withstand violent assaults upon their structures.

Yeah, I've read this, but I guess I'm stupid, because those sound like the same thing to me?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Yeah, I've read this, but I guess I'm stupid, because those sound like the same thing to me?

Yes. I am just saying that violent assault can be any many ways. It does not always have to be by weopons.