lucky me

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
i just finished ch 14

and so far fingolfin, fingon and maedhros are my favorites

Fingon is also another one of my favorites.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
To speak seriously, I think the noblest of the Ñoldor was Finrod's father Finarfin.

Are you implying that my opinion is not "serious"?? Pistols at dawn, my dear Sir!!

Anyway, I find the Shibboleth to be a very strange tale, but most interesting of course. Have only read it once, but I plan to re-read it any day come Christmas.

I am trying to find some point of reference that can make it understandable or rather meaningful to me, why the pronounciation of a single sound could make such a difference and cause so much (mostly misery)? Perhaps you need to be a dedicated lingvist like Tolkien to appreciate the finer points of this tale?

SGH, it is found in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH.

[Ñólendil]

The Shibboleth is in Vol. XII.

'You really don't get to know him. I have heard some people complain about him for turning back from the exile.'

That's interesting! I think remaining in Aman was the more noble thing to do. Arafinwe decided not to rebel against the ordained Authorities of the World. Getting to know him more would probably only mean getting to know a different person, an Exile.

'Are you implying that my opinion is not "serious"?? Pistols at dawn, my dear Sir!!'

Of course not! I was refering to what my posts usually are like when Finrod is mentioned, when I tease SGH since she has this crazy idea he's a good guy.

The big non-linguistic importance of the change of þ to s is that Fëanáro brought politics into it. He took it as a personal insult to himself and the memory of his mother, and divided (not literally) up the people of Tirion based on their preference. You were either with him or against him. As the introduction states, the single seemingly unimportant change of þ to s made up an important chapter in the history and strife of the Ñoldor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
The Shibboleth is in Vol. XII.

'You really don't get to know him. I have heard some people complain about him for turning back from the exile.'

That's interesting! I think remaining in Aman was the more noble thing to do. Arafinwe decided not to rebel against the ordained Authorities of the World. Getting to know him more would probably only mean getting to know a different person, an Exile.

The problem is that he started out as one of the exiles and turned back after the Doom of Mandos was spoken, and also because of the kinslaying. I think many readers may have taken this to be a cowardly act. However, it is my understanding from the Sil, that he was devastated by the kinslaying because he was very friendly with the Teleri, and because of Earwen, and this was his main reason for returning. Maybe readers would have perceived him as more nobel had he never left with the Exiles in the first place.

[i]'Are you implying that my opinion is not "serious"?? Pistols at dawn, my dear Sir!!'

Of course not! I was refering to what my posts usually are like when Finrod is mentioned, when I tease SGH since she has this crazy idea he's a good guy. [/B]

WHAT? You mean he's not? Oh Inoldonil, tell me it isn't so. I believe what you say. NOT!!!

[Wayfarer]

Finrod wasn' t really a good guy.

I'd say he was fair, at most. ]: )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Finrod wasn' t really a good guy.

I'd say he was fair, at most. ]: )

Explain please.

[afro-elf]

i'm interested in hearing your reply to that


to you think there are any good guys (ELVES) in the sil?

if so who?


I HATE FEANOR

i was hoping for some redeeming qualities in him but my detest for him was cemented on his death where he knew that the elves could not win and STILL damned his sons with that doomed oath


at least celembor (SP?) the maker of the 3 rings shunned his father after finrod's death

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
i'm interested in hearing your reply to that


to you think there are any good guys (ELVES) in the sil?

if so who?


I HATE FEANOR

i was hoping for some redeeming qualities in him but my detest for him was cemented on his death where he knew that the elves could not win and STILL damned his sons with that doomed oath


at least celembor (SP?) the maker of the 3 rings shunned his father after finrod's death

afro-elf, are you already past Finrod's death? I think Wayfarer and Inoldonil are just trying to get a rise from me. They know that no other character in the story made the ultimate sacrifice for friendship as he did. He was much loved by both Elves and Men.

I think most of the Elves in the Sil are good guys with a few exceptions. Feanor, his sons, Eol, Maeglin, and then Thingol IMHO.

[afro-elf]

there is one sindar that i like

mablung he seems to be a great warrior and honorable


i had the unfinished or lost tales don't recall which one it was
but it was thrown away( arrgh!!!)

and i recall him escorting someone maybe turin's sister and going to the ruins ( of was it northorond (SP/)


i like finrod because he seemed to be a powerful warrior and mage and noble

the fact that he could even stand against sauron in a duel of magic was way cool

fingolfin i really like though, the fight was melkor was great

the lord of elves vs the god of evil and the fact that the wounds that he gave melkor never healed and left him with a limp was a testement to his power

i

[afro-elf]

it seems that finrod was released rather early from mandos

it said something about him walk with his father
and probably is love

she was a vanyar she has golden hair and so do you

HMMM

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
it seems that finrod was released rather early from mandos

it said something about him walk with his father
and probably is love

she was a vanyar she has golden hair and so do you

HMMM

One of my favorite parts. "They burried the body of Felagund upon the hilltop of his own isle and it was clean again. and the green grave of Finrod, Finarfins son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves remained inviolate until the land was broken and changed and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar."

Yes, she was a Vanya, and they were reunited. Actually, my hair is just a tad lighter than golden, and no it is not out of a bottle.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Explain please.

Gladly.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Finrod, Finarfins son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves.

Findrod was the fairest of the Noldorin Princes. Thus, I say he was not good, but fair. ]: )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer


Gladly.



Findrod was the fairest of the Noldorin Princes. Thus, I say he was not good, but fair. ]: )

Cute. I knew it was something like that.

[afro-elf]

first thanks for reading through my numerous typos

second wayfarer

what is the sindarin for one of biting wit

i dub thee thus

[Wayfarer]

lad you liked it, SGH

Afro elf, well...

I would use either Lhaeg 'keen, sharp, acute' or Megor 'sharp-pointed'

Perhaps in conjunction with nauth 'thought', some form of peth, 'word', or mebbe lam

So:

Lhaegnauthion=Sharp Witted
Lhaeglamion =Sharp Tongued

et cetera

The translation could be Naeth Nauth, which would mean either 'biting wit' or 'woeful thought'

Then, perhaps I would be Edhel uin Naeth Nauth 'Elf of the Biting Wit'

[Captain Stern]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by afro-elf
i'm interested in hearing your reply to that


to you think there are any good guys (ELVES) in the sil?

if so who?


I HATE FEANOR

i was hoping for some redeeming qualities in him but my detest for him was cemented on his death where he knew that the elves could not win and STILL damned his sons with that doomed oath


at least celembor (SP?) the maker of the 3 rings shunned his father after finrod's death
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will probably hate him even more afer reading this:

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Originally posted by Inoldonil

Well, they did have different names in Aman. The elder of the two (the more dear to his father) was Nityafinwë Ambarussa, and the younger was Telufinwë Ambarussa. There's a story with it of course that would explain my opinion, but their father called the youngest Ambarto, and they called eachother Ambarussa. They could be distinguished: as they grew older the elder's hair grew darker, though both's were red-brown.

Ah, bother, here's the story as I remember it, near the end I've actually bothered to get my book out and use some of the actual dialogue.

There are father-names and mother-names among the Eldar of Aman. The father-name is given by the father, the mother-name by the mother. Fëanáro named the two youngest twins Nityafinwe and Telufinwe. 'Nityafinwe' meant 'Little Finwe' and 'Telufinwe' meant 'Last Finwe'. Nerdanel wife of Fëanáro named them both Ambarussa 'top-russet', because of their red-brown hair which they inherited from her. Mother-names are often prophetic, it must be remembered. When Feanáro begged that at least their names should be different, Nerdanel became troubled and said 'Then let one be called Umbarto, but which, time will tell'. Umbarto means 'Fated'.

Feanáro was either deeply troubled by this ominous name, or he heard her wrongly, but he either altered the name to or thought she had said Ambarto, 'upwards-exalted'. Nerdanel said 'Umbarto I chose, but it will not matter', or something along those lines. As they grew up, the elder, Nityafinwe, grew to look more like his father as his hair grew darker. He was more dear to Fëanáro. Anyway the Silmarillion tells about the estrangement of Fëanáro and Nerdanel, and the Oath and all that. Before Faenor's Host set out on the Great Journey, Nerdanel came to him and begged that he wouldn't go, but when it became plain that he would, he begged that one at least would never go to Middle-earth. He said 'Were you a true wife you would keep all of them and go with us. They are resolved to go with their father. Take your dark omens to the Valar, who will delight in them. I defy them.' So they parted. The Silmarillion tells of the Kinslaying at Alqualonde.

As the legend goes (and this part differs from the earlier versions), after Faenor had landed in Middle-earth, he waked his son Curufinwë (=Curufin) and some of his most trusted men, and they burned the white ships together in the night. In the morning most of the host (after they were roused) were upset, for many dear things that they loved were on those ships, and they wished to sail further down the coast. But Nityafinwë spoke in anger to his father: 'Did you not then wake Ambarussa my brother, whom you call Ambarto? He would not come ashore to sleep (he said) in discomfort.' But it was thought, and guessed by his father, that Telufinwe had it in his mind to sail his ship back to join Nerdanel, being horrified by the deeds of his father at Alqualonde. 'That was the first one I destroyed' said Fëanáro, hiding his own dismay. 'Then rightly you gave the name to the youngest of your children' said Ambarussa, 'and Umbarto "the Fated" was its true form. Fell and fey are you become.'

So Telufinwe died before his name was translated. Nityafinwe adapted his mother-name to Sindarin as Amros. Since his late young brother preferred his mother-name as well, I guess that is why he was also called 'Amros' in memory.
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[afro-elf]

i recall reading that somewhere earlier


was that orginally from the lost or unfinished tales


would they be NOW equal to amrod and amras?

i think that eol, meaglin, feanor, curufin, celegorm,caranthir are all evil !@#$%

maglor and meadhros i feel were pulled by a dark fate like turin

[Ñólendil]

It's from Peoples of Middle-earth, Vol. XII of HoMe.

would they be NOW equal to amrod and amras?

I don't know what you mean by 'NOW'. Tolkien changed the names of Amrod and Amras to Amros and Amros, if that answers your question.

[afro-elf]

what i meant was

one son died on the ship

but in the SIL he did not ( they say feanor has 7 sons) and they are all in the SIL

so in the SIL he did not die, so the twins amras and amrod both survive

[Captain Stern]

If I remember correctly Amrod and Amras were hardly ever mentioned in The Silmarillion. I think the only time they were part of the story was when Morgoth cast that huge fire wave and destroyed many elves and elvish kingdoms. Included among the dead were Amrod and Amras.

So due to the lack of their involvment in the story I would guess that it was another case of Christopher Tolkien's editing.

I could well be wrong, Inoldonil or someone will probably set you straight