Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

Who Really Killed the Witch King?



There is much debate about who really killed the Witch King. Some say Merry killed him and Éowyn helped, and others say Merry helped and Éowyn actually killed him. I think that neither are true, Merry and Éowyn both killed him, according to the book and the movie, The Return of the King.

In ROTK (the book), Éowyn has disguised herself as a man to fight in the war. Théoden, King of Rohan and Éowyn's uncle, tried to kill the Witch King but his horse was pierced with a black arrow and Théoden was pinned under him and was badly injured. Éowyn, still disguised, ran to his aid.

She told the King of the Nazĝul to leave him alone, and the Witch King warned her that she will die. She ignores that and says that she will hinder him anyway.

He says: “Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man mat hinder me!” Then she takes off her helmet (this is my favorite part!) and says that she is no man, but Éowyn, the Lady of Rohan! The Witch King tries to kill her, but only succeeds in hurting her.

But Merry runs to her aid and stabs him in the back of the knee, giving Éowyn enough time to get up with all her remaining strength, and kill the Ringwraith. She almost died, if it were not for Aragorn's healing touch and Merry's stabbing the King.

The movie has several differences than. Merry knows that it was Éowyn, Éowyn talks to Théoden (in the book, it was Merry), and the wording is a bit different. But the end result is the same, that Éowyn killed the Witch King but not without a of of help. She might not have been able to if it were not for Merry stabbing the Nazĝul .

So in conclusion, both texts, movie or book, whichever you prefer, still says that Éowyn killed the King of the Ringwraiths. But not without some big help from Merry, of course. So I think that both of them did, it. Neither one would have been able to do what they did without each other.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

There shouldn't be any debate. A blow to the back of the knee is clearly not going to do any great damage.

Anyway, weren't hobbits a strain of the race of Men? Which would make Merry a man, and therefore ineligible.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by frodomerryandaragornrock

The movie has several differences than. Merry knows that it was Éowyn

Yet another change in the movie for the better. From day one, it strained credulity to believe that Merry could ride (and otherwise hang!) for so long
with someone who, by then, he knew personally and not have any clue who it was.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

There shouldn't be any debate. A blow to the back of the knee is clearly not going to do any great damage.

You have obviously never had a serious knee injury or require knee reconstructive surgery. I have - the injury was the worst pain of my life.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Anyway, weren't hobbits a strain of the race of Men? Which would make Merry a man, and therefore ineligible.

Excellent point (and, I believe, definitive).

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

There shouldn't be any debate. A blow to the back of the knee is clearly not going to do any great damage.

I don't know... after all, do the Nazgul still have organs? At least organs on which their lives depend? I don't think so. A blow in one place might have the same effect as a blow in any other. OTOH - I agree that Eowyn struck the death blow.

Anyway, weren't hobbits a strain of the race of Men? Which would make Merry a man, and therefore ineligible.

Maybe so - but only a STRAIN! And I don't know if they were commonly acknowledged as such - either my Men or themselves. I think their eligibility is restored.

[Alcuin]

Oh, an oldie but goodie!

Originally Posted by frodomerryandaragornrock

There is much debate about who really killed the Witch King. Some say Merry killed him and Éowyn helped, and others say Merry helped and Éowyn actually killed him. I think that neither are true, Merry and Éowyn both killed him, according to the book and the movie, The Return of the King.

Leaving aside the obvious red meat, “Do the movies have any canonicity whatsoever?” yeah, it sure looks like it took both Merry and Éowyn to kill the Witch-King. In “The Battle of the Pelennor Fields,” the text says that,

[Merry] looked for his sword that he had let fall; … the blade was smoking like a dry branch … and … it … was consumed.

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs… [G]lad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it … in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was ... Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

Bombadil chose the blades from the Barrow-wight’s hoard in FotR, “Fog on the Barrow-downs”:

For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvelous workmanship… Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time...

‘Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people,’ he said. ‘Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking, east, south, or far away into dark and danger.’ Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dûm in the Land of Angmar.

I think the short-swords were counterparts to the Nazgûl’s long knives, like the one the Witch-king used to wound Frodo on Weathertop: the Nazgûl knife drew the living into the shadow-realm, but the Dúnedain knife drew the Nazgûl back to the realm of the living.

In any case, the Witch-king apparently had sinew, either ligaments or tendons, and undead flesh, so I cast my vote for “unseen body in the shadow world,” not an incorporeal being (like the ghosts of Dunharrow). He could wear clothes, a crown, and wield both sword and mace to deadly effect: he was a man, but a man trapped in the necromantic enchantment of his fiendish master, Sauron. The nefarious effect of the Rings was to prolong or stretch one’s life, as Bilbo described to Gandalf in “A Long-expected Party”:

I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.

I think that Merry’s blow activated whatever magic, enchantment, or even anti-magic (we might consider that the Barrow-blade “merely” undid Sauron’s spells), leaving the Witch-king vulnerable to injury by normal weapons: apparently, he was not so vulnerable before: he could not be killed or “unhoused” before Merry struck him with the Barrow-blade. Éowyn’s blow then decapitated him; but her sword still suffered the fate of all swords that stuck him, as Aragorn described for the hobbits on Weathertop: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.”

So here’s my position, spelled out for clean attack and dissection for any who care to sharpen their own long knives: Barrow-blade, Morgul-knife, or rusty dagger:

• The Witch-king has a body. It isn’t in the normal world, but rather in a shadow-world, whatever that is. (The Eldar can see into it, it would seem.)
• The Dúnedain of the North (Cardolan?) made at least one set of “long knives” for use in their wars with Angmar. These were buried with a fearsome keeper, the Barrow-wight (perhaps by the victorious Witch-king after destroying Cardolan?), but Bombadil chose four for the hobbits. Frodo’s was broken by the Witch-king (by magic?) on Weathertop.
• Merry, ignored on the battlefield by the Witch-king because he was focused on Éowyn, who was clearly “no man” and hence technically fell outside Glorfindel’s prophecy (now, why would a bad guy put such hope in a good guy’s prophecy?), got behind the bad guy, and stuck him with the knife, breaking the spell that made him invulnerable to normal weapons.
• Éowyn chopped off his now-vulnerable noggin, and the Witch-king was “unhoused.”

What happened from there is anyone’s guess, but mine is that the Witch-king’s spirit returned to Sauron, where Sauron tormented him mercilessly: Frodo and Sam heard it pass overhead, apparently (to me) from the direction of the battlefield toward the direction of Barad-dûr; but all notions welcomed! (As long as they constructively build the thread.)

-0-

Isn’t this the second-most thoroughly-debated topic on Tolkien forums after, “Did the Balrog have wings?” And is there any reason we cannot gleefully rehash it all over again?

-0-

Oh, phoo! Here come the orcs to drag me back to the salt mines…

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Oh, an oldie but goodie!
:
:
-0-

Oh, phoo! Here come the orcs to drag me back to the salt mines…

I know... we'll start a petition! A petition that the Orcs would release Alcuin fom the salt mines! Surely they'll listen to reason... and respond to this humanitarian request.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I know... we'll start a petition! A petition that the Orcs would release Alcuin fom the salt mines! Surely they'll listen to reason... and respond to this humanitarian request.

We'll have to boycott salt. You can undermine (groan at pun) their business model first by reducing demand for their product.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Good job, Alcuin.

Here's a question: Suppose Eowyn passes out as Merry slices WiKi's ligaments. What happens to the WiKi then, without Eowyn delivering the final blow?

My guess (without any research at this point) is that he's then no different from any other very old soldier of Mordor with a jacked-up leg, limping around the battlefield, trying not to get himself killed before wasting away of old age.

Any other ideas?

I think it is important to remember that the prophecy about who would kill him is just that: a prophecy. It is not a statement of magical, medical, or scientific fact based on a physical evaluation of WiKi's being. It is a statement of who would kill him, not of who could kill him. And prophecies don't all come true...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Here's a question: Suppose Eowyn passes out as Merry slices WiKi's ligaments. What happens to the WiKi then, without Eowyn delivering the final blow?

My guess (without any research at this point) is that he's then no different from any other very old soldier of Mordor with a jacked-up leg, limping around the battlefield, trying not to get himself killed before wasting away of old age.
.

Old? I think it is not implied that the knife broke the spell that kept WiKi forever young and handsome, though invisible. It was his Ring's doing, and could hardly be broken without destroying his Ring or the One Ring.

However, there had to be other spells on the nazgul: those that resulted in semi-invulnerability of the wraiths. (You can't slay them with arrows or drown them and all blades perish that pierce them - without doing much harm). I think it was that spell that was broken.

I guess, had only Merry struck him, the WK would have been incapacitated much like any mortal man with the same injury, maybe worse - paralyzed. But there were at least 5-6 of the nazgul present on the battlefield. He could have called a buddy on a Fell Beast to carry him to Dr. Sauron's best hospital.

And now a little research on the matter.

Letter # 210. From a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman [Not dated; June 1958]
(Tolkien's comments on the film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings.)

There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)

So, even a flesh wound by a Barrow-Downs blade (what is a dagger in the thigh after all?) makes a nazgul "fall down". Would he be paralyzed? Likely, IMO. But it is not said he would be dead, just out of the game for a time at least. Perhaps the injured nazgul could be healed and this spell could be remade, given time and competent assistance.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't know... after all, do the Nazgul still have organs? At least organs on which their lives depend? I don't think so. A blow in one place might have the same effect as a blow in any other. OTOH - I agree that Eowyn struck the death blow.

Come on, Val, don't contradict yourself. Why the blow in the face or the neck would kill him, if he doesn't depend on any organs?
You can't speak or sniff without functional lungs, without breathing. Another matter that they didn't NEED to breathe for survival (most likely) - that's why Gandalf was so confident NOT to find a drowned nazgul in the Bruinen.
And we know the nazgul didn't NEED to eat:

It is probable that the Captain took the one horse that remained (he may have had strength to withdraw it from the flood) and unclad, naked, invisible, rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed.RC p.262

Does it mean they never ate and were unable to eat? I don't think so.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I guess, had only Merry struck him, the WK would have been incapacitated much like any mortal man with the same injury, maybe worse - paralyzed. ...

So, even a flesh wound by a Barrow-Downs blade (what is a dagger in the thigh after all?) makes a nazgul "fall down". Would he be paralyzed? Likely, IMO. But it is not said he would be dead, just out of the game for a time at least. Perhaps the injured nazgul could be healed and this spell could be remade, given time and competent assistance.

He wasn’t paralyzed: the Witch-king was on all fours. His first reaction should be to try to get up, but he can’t because one of his knees is out of commission.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Old? I think it is not implied that the knife broke the spell that kept WiKi forever young and handsome, though invisible. It was his Ring's doing, and could hardly be broken without destroying his Ring or the One Ring.

I was thinking the spell that was broken, "the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will," was the Ring-spell. Surely, destroying his Ring would break that spell, but why believe that is the only way to break it?

He isn't wearing the Ring. Therefore, its grasp on him is to some extent tenuous.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And we know the nazgul didn't NEED to eat:

Does it mean they never ate and were unable to eat? I don't think so.

That’s a great thought: I wonder Sauron trapped one of the Nazgûl by offering a Ring as a weight-loss aid or diet supplement?

[Gordis]

Ahh, Alcuin, I never had time to answer to your first post... I am working hard myself in the salt mines... But I mostly agree with you.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

He wasn’t paralyzed: the Witch-king was on all fours. His first reaction should be to try to get up, but he can’t because one of his knees is out of commission.

It would be certainly true, if it were a mortal man we were discussing. I also thought it applicable to the WK - as you do - but now I am confused about this quote from the letter 210 about the Weathertop scene. Please, read it again.

There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)

Zimmerman didn't take into the account the spell on the blades: Sam gives a nazgul a minor wound and nothing drastic happens. Tolkien points out that Sam's blade (any blade) would be destroyed AND the nazgul would have fallen down. Now why would he fall from a minor wound? Because of the spell, most certainly. So the WK also was hurt worse than a mortal man with the same injury.

OK, then in your first post, Alcuin, you advance the idea that the Barrow blade moves the nazgul back into the World of living, making him vulnerable to other weapons.
I agree that the Barrow blade breaks Sauron's "invulnerability" spell:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I think that Merry’s blow activated whatever magic, enchantment, or even anti-magic (we might consider that the Barrow-blade “merely” undid Sauron’s spells), leaving the Witch-king vulnerable to injury by normal weapons: apparently, he was not so vulnerable before: he could not be killed or “unhoused” before Merry struck him with the Barrow-blade. Éowyn’s blow then decapitated him; but her sword still suffered the fate of all swords that stuck him, as Aragorn described for the hobbits on Weathertop: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.”

Yes.
But I am not sure I agree with this:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

the Nazgûl knife drew the living into the shadow-realm, but the Dúnedain knife drew the Nazgûl back to the realm of the living.

Maybe, maybe... but if a nazgul is drawn into the world of the living, wouldn't he become visible in the first place? And that didn't happen:

Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.

There was still nothing visible between crown and mantle when she struck - thus I doubt the nazgul was back in the World of light.

I disagree with DPR that the "invulnerability" spell is the same Ring-spell that makes a former Man an invisible immortal wraith. I think it was something else added by Sauron, maybe back in the Second Age. The Nine Rings made the nazgul immortal, like elves, but as Elves they could be killed by ordinary means. Likely Sauron tried to remedy to that.

Oh if I had more time to discuss this nice oldie...

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

Thank you everyone for your comments!!! i appreciate them!!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

the "invulnerability" spell

I have never heard of such a thing until this thread. Got any support that such a spell existed? I'm not fully versed in HoME or Letters, so I'm willing to be educated on this point. Or is such a spell inferred from context in LotR itself?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I have never heard of such a thing until this thread. Got any support that such a spell existed? I'm not fully versed in HoME or Letters, so I'm willing to be educated on this point. Or is such a spell inferred from context in LotR itself?

Only inferred.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Hmm. It is my belief that there is/was just one spell on WiKi, the Ring-induced one, and the barrow-blade broke it. I have no textual support for this either, but the simplest answer is usually the best, IMO.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

...I am not sure I agree with this:

Maybe, maybe... but if a nazgul is drawn into the world of the living, wouldn't he become visible in the first place? And that didn't happen:

There was still nothing visible between crown and mantle when she struck - thus I doubt the nazgul was back in the World of light.

Speculation on my part about how the knives – both Barrow-blade and Morgul-knife – might operate. They may have no similar function (besides, this is all fantasy magic!), but they do seem to be mirrors of one another, do they not? The Morgul-knife drew Frodo into the shadow-world. The Barrow-blade made the Witch-king vulnerable to Éowyn’s blow.

Of course, there is that citation of Aragorn: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.” That indicates that the Witch-king had been pierced – wounded – before, but either the wounds were without effect, or he healed (presumably necromantically, since normal healing would not likely be possible), or he was simply invulnerable (in which case Aragorn was either mistaken, speaking poetically, or I misunderstand Tolkien’s text).

Clearly, though, something filled the clothing the Witch-king wore, and that something was his physical body, albeit transferred into the shadow-world. Gandalf alluded to their situation in his conversation with Frodo after the hobbit awoke in Rivendell:

You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.

The indication is that they still possessed physical bodies, but in the wraith-world.

There is a passage in Morgoth’s Ring, “Aman and Mortal Men”, pp 429-430, explaining that any Mortal who entered Aman or Valinor did not lose his Mortality, as Sauron convinced Ar-Pharazôn, but the natural balance between the hröa (body) and fëa (soul) would be upset. Once in Valinor, it was believed the fëa of a Mortal would seek to leave the hröa, and that if it were unable to do this, the fëa would go mad; while if the fëa departed, the hröa would act without guidance, effectively becoming a monster. Sauron’s necromancy seems to me to have duplicated this trap for Mortals through the Rings in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by frodomerryandaragornrock

Thank you everyone for your comments!!! i appreciate them!!

Are you kidding? We intend to beat this horse to death!

Oh… is that an undead horse? Where did they put a Ring on that thing… Ohh...

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

"Are you kidding? We intend to beat this horse to death!

Oh… is that an undead horse? Where did they put a Ring on that thing… Ohh.."


thanks a lot, Alcuin! Very funny!!