The Prophecy...?

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Yoda was warning Luke that he might be able to help his friends, but Vader would capture him, seduce him to the Dark Side, and then that would be the end of the Rebel Alliance, "all they fought for". Rather like Anakin in Episode 2 trying to save Padmé at the expense of the Republic. "Help her you could, but you would destroy all she fought for . . ."

It is certainly an interpretation, but is it actually made clear?

In either case, IMHO it holds that by trying to do good, by intervening Luke's efforts would result in the exact opposite occurring. The manner in which he falls to the Dark Side might be irrelevent, actually, the only important thing being that he would fall.

So... where were we? Is this about to turn into a theological debate?

[Lief Erikson]

There is no evil done by using the Force for good and trying to rescue his friends. Obi-Wan was using the Force for good in exactly that way in Episode 4, but he was a fully trained Jedi Knight, not capable of being turned to the Dark Side. Luke was a young hotshot teenage pilot- not someone very capable of taking on an enemy of the likes of Vader and winning. I think the interpretation I've always held of that part of the movie holds quite steady. Remember that when Luke was getting into his ship to leave Dagobah, Yoda and Obi-Wan continually were warning him not only about the dangers of the Dark Side, but about the dangers of Darth Vader in particular. Yoda said, "Strong is Vader! Bind what you have learned! Save you it can!" as his parting plea to get Luke to stay. Luke wasn't experienced enough, wasn't trained enough, to handle what was out there. Rescuing his friends might be a good thing, but Luke was just not ready.

Anyway, I'm really tired and busy at the moment, so I'll just leave the discussion there .

[Elemmírë]

Okay then, we can continue tomorrow. Watching The Empire Strikes Back at 2 in the morning is never a good idea...

Anyway, I got past the Dagobah part, and your interpretation does hold.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Obi-Wan was using the Force for good in exactly that way in Episode 4, but he was a fully trained Jedi Knight, not capable of being turned to the Dark Side.

IMO, a fully trained Jedi Knight is most certainly capable of being turned to the Dark Side. It is simply less likely.

IMO, Obi-wan did not use the Force in the way that Luke was trying to. My half-asleep brain cannot pinpoint any parts where in Episode IV Obi-Wan directly used the Force to destroy someone using the Dark Side. In fact, he allowed himself to be killed.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There is no evil done by using the Force for good and trying to rescue his friends.

Au contraire, he might not have been turned to the Dark Side at that time, but he learned truths about himself that he was not ready for... that could have destroyed him. And what good did his interference do? None whatsoever. He did not save Han or Leia, he only nearly got himself killed.

Ah. Another point supporting the idea that the Force is in balance when the Dark Side and the "light" are equal. It is not simply the Dark which is considered a disturbance. The Emperor mentions about Luke that "There is a disturbance in the Force."

For my own part (don't remember if I've said this yet), I do not believe that the Force is good or evil. Yoda alludes to the idea that the Force is simply the compilation of all life (don't remember the exact words). It seems to me that the Force is beyond good or evil, and is both and neither.

Eh... I think I had more to say, but I honestly don't remember. Time to finish the movie and go to bed. We'll continue this later.

[edited] Somehow I missed the whole end!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

IMO, a fully trained Jedi Knight is most certainly capable of being turned to the Dark Side. It is simply less likely.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

IMO, Obi-wan did not use the Force in the way that Luke was trying to.

They went out trying to rescue a princess and the Rebel Alliance. It was a heroic mission, just as Luke's was . Remember, there is also a clear parallel between what Luke did in Empire and what Anakin did in Clones. They both were going out to save someone else, and both of them in my opinion were trying to do something good and noble. They just weren't well enough trained.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

My half-asleep brain cannot pinpoint any parts where in Episode IV Obi-Wan directly used the Force to destroy someone using the Dark Side. In fact, he allowed himself to be killed.

In Episode 1 he certainly used the Force to kill. Note how I prefer to stick to the prequels in this discussion .

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Au contraire, he might not have been turned to the Dark Side at that time, but he learned truths about himself that he was not ready for... that could have destroyed him. And what good did his interference do? None whatsoever. He did not save Han or Leia, he only nearly got himself killed.

I agree. But the fact that it did not work certainly doesn't mean it wasn't a good thing that he tried to do, or that his attempt was "evil". It was simply that he wasn't ready. That was also the point that Yoda and Obi-Wan kept driving home to him, if you recall (you were watching the movie quite late ). They continually urged him, as Yoda said, "you must complete the training." They weren't saying his goal or effort was at all bad- they were saying he just wasn't ready.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Ah. Another point supporting the idea that the Force is in balance when the Dark Side and the "light" are equal. It is not simply the Dark which is considered a disturbance. The Emperor mentions about Luke that "There is a disturbance in the Force."

Wouldn't a terrorist using the Internet find a cop using the Internet "disturbing"?

Originally Posted by Elemmire

For my own part (don't remember if I've said this yet), I do not believe that the Force is good or evil. Yoda alludes to the idea that the Force is simply the compilation of all life (don't remember the exact words). It seems to me that the Force is beyond good or evil, and is both and neither.

I know that in the Original Series, both Yoda and Obi-Wan make explanations of what the Force is, neither of which include it having a will of its own for good. That is something about the nature of the Force that is revealed in Episode 1. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan says anything that refutes the idea that the Force is good and has a will. In fact, Han Solo in Episode 4 suggested that it does have a will of its own. "There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny. It's all a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense." That the Force should be spoken of as controlling people's destinies suggests that the movie makers may have intended the Force to have a will, even from Episode 4.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

They both were going out to save someone else, and both of them in my opinion were trying to do something good and noble. They just weren't well enough trained.

Yes. By all definitions, trying to save someone else is "good and noble." However, when one tries to force interference - especially without understanding - a good cause will inevitably turn to evil results.

Thus... we find them constantly being rescued by other people.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

In Episode 1 he certainly used the Force to kill. Note how I prefer to stick to the prequels in this discussion .

You're right. He did use the Force to kill in the prequels. You'll also remember that he was not fully trained or as aware of himself and the nature of the Force as he would be later, in the duel with Darth Vader.

Would you like to hear my little theory on that as well?

I think you're just trying to annoy me, knowing that I can't stand the prequels.

This is going to be an interesting debate, with you sticking to one group of movies and me to the other.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I agree. But the fact that it did not work certainly doesn't mean it wasn't a good thing that he tried to do, or that his attempt was "evil". It was simply that he wasn't ready. That was also the point that Yoda and Obi-Wan kept driving home to him, if you recall (you were watching the movie quite late ). They continually urged him, as Yoda said, "you must complete the training." They weren't saying his goal or effort was at all bad- they were saying he just wasn't ready.

Sure it was a good thing he tried to do. The attempt wasn't evil, it just turned to evil ends because when one tries to force interference, it seems to be a common theme that the result will always be the opposite.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Wouldn't a terrorist using the Internet find a cop using the Internet "disturbing"?

The Emperor did not say that a Rebel using the Force was "disturbing." He said that there was a "disturbance." IMO, these are two entirely different concepts.

While undoubtedly the Emperor probably did find Luke's strength disturbing, I believe that he was referring to the fact that his very presence and strength was causing a disturbance in the Force by causing the balance to shift more towards the light.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I know that in the Original Series, both Yoda and Obi-Wan make explanations of what the Force is, neither of which include it having a will of its own for good. That is something about the nature of the Force that is revealed in Episode 1. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan says anything that refutes the idea that the Force is good and has a will. In fact, Han Solo in Episode 4 suggested that it does have a will of its own. "There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny. It's all a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense." That the Force should be spoken of as controlling people's destinies suggests that the movie makers may have intended the Force to have a will, even from Episode 4.

The only problem with your quote is that it is given by Han Solo, who admits that he doesn't believe in the Force. By Obi-Wan's comments, I always got the impression that it was a "force" flowing through you, and would guide your actions if you allowed it the chance.

Another note of interest: In ESB, Yoda announces that he will be unable to teach Luke because the boy has no patience. Patience seems to be a common theme throughout, and a necessary quality to be at one with the Force.

Look at Han, for example. All throughout ESB he was unable to slow down and unwilling to listen to the people around him who could have told him time and again what was wrong (primarily, the fact that the hyperdrive never seemed to work). It always seems that someone knows about these problems, but nobody slows down enough to listen to them.

While a lack of patience is neither evil nor falling to the Dark Side, I believe it shows that one is not at one with the Force.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Yes. By all definitions, trying to save someone else is "good and noble." However, when one tries to force interference - especially without understanding - a good cause will inevitably turn to evil results.

Thus... we find them constantly being rescued by other people.



You're right. He did use the Force to kill in the prequels. You'll also remember that he was not fully trained or as aware of himself and the nature of the Force as he would be later, in the duel with Darth Vader.

Remember that in RoTJ he urged Luke to kill Vader.

Obi-Wan: "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again."
Luke: "I can't kill my own father."
Obi-Wan: "Then the Empire has already won."

In the same conversation, Obi-Wan even advised Luke not to try turning Anakin back to the light side.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Would you like to hear my little theory on that as well?

I think you're just trying to annoy me, knowing that I can't stand the prequels.

This is going to be an interesting debate, with you sticking to one group of movies and me to the other.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

The Emperor did not say that a Rebel using the Force was "disturbing." He said that there was a "disturbance." IMO, these are two entirely different concepts.

While undoubtedly the Emperor probably did find Luke's strength disturbing, I believe that he was referring to the fact that his very presence and strength was causing a disturbance in the Force by causing the balance to shift more towards the light.

Well, I disagree. If a disturbance is a mess-up of the balance of the Force, then the Force would have been way out of balance when the Jedi Order was at its height, and Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to call Darth Maul a disturbance, as he did in the beginning of Episode 1.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

The only problem with your quote is that it is given by Han Solo, who admits that he doesn't believe in the Force. By Obi-Wan's comments, I always got the impression that it was a "force" flowing through you, and would guide your actions if you allowed it the chance.

Ah yes. That's good. I forgot about the part where Luke said, "you mean it controls your actions?" Obi-Wan said, "partially. But it also obeys your commands."

I don't think there is any problem with the Han Solo quote. If he was mistaken in his assumptions about how the Force was supposed to behave, I don't think the movie-makers would have included his statement in the movie. All it serves to do is distract movie audiences from the real way the Force works. The question was whether the Force exists or not- not how it works. Technically you're right- Han Solo could have been goofed up in his impressions of how the Force works. Yet there's no reason for the movie-makers to make one of the characters make those mistakes. I'm certain the movie-makers didn't intend Han to be wrong in about how the Force works- he was simply wrong in that it does exist. The question they were debating was whether or not the Force exists- not how it works.

I think I agree a good deal with your comments about patience. Yoda said it himself. "Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things." Patience is important to true attunement with the Force. With the Light Side anyway .

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Remember that in RoTJ he urged Luke to kill Vader.

Obi-Wan: "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again."
Luke: "I can't kill my own father."
Obi-Wan: "Then the Empire has already won."

In the same conversation, Obi-Wan even advised Luke not to try turning Anakin back to the light side.

Even true Jedi screw up sometimes.

The fact of the matter is that Luke did not kill Vader.

"Do or do not. There is no try."

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Well, I disagree. If a disturbance is a mess-up of the balance of the Force, then the Force would have been way out of balance when the Jedi Order was at its height, and Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to call Darth Maul a disturbance, as he did in the beginning of Episode 1.

The Force seems to have been way out of balance in ESB, but Luke was still considered a "disturbance."

And thus we are brought full circle and back to the debate at hand.

I actually think it was possible that the Force was out of balance when the Jedi Order was at its height. Currently, I have two theories on the whole matter, one which rides upon this, and one which does not.

Now. My original theory revolves around the idea that the "light" side of the force is comparable to the Taoist "yang", the positive energy of the universe, along with a lot of other things. You have to remember that a lot of ideas in Star Wars are borrowed from Eastern philosophies, especially Chinese Taoism. If you want to know more about this before we continue debating, I'll post it later.

By equating the Force with the Tao in this manner, the Dark Side is equivalent to the "yin," negative energy and so forth. According to Taoist philosophy, one must not strive or favour either side over the other, but seek balance. This is where Taoism comes into conflict with the Jedi Knights, who are obviously favouring the "light" side at the expense of the "dark" side.

One interpretation is that this means that the Force is out of balance, due to the actions of the Jedi, leading to the stagnantation of the Old Republic and a return to balance brought on by the obviously negative actions of Vader and Palpatine.

Or... maybe not.

Here's my other theory:

The Force may be equated to the Tao, but the "light" and Dark Side cannot be equated to yang and yin. I've begun to edge more towards this theory in part because I've never yet heard a true Jedi talk about the "light" side of the Force, but only about the Force itself.

This theory goes that a true Jedi, rather than seeking towards good, seeks towards balance between the dual aspects of the Force. Taoist philosophy is very wary of Good vs. Evil, so I am reluctant to label the two sides of the Force in such a manner.

Instead, the Jedi seek balance between aspects of the Force, something that could be described as "good". For whatever reasons they might have, the Sith edge towards either extreme, and by doing so, fall into the Dark Side. It is not perfectly analogous to Taoism, but then again, the Force is based on Taoism, rather than being Taoism itself.

[Lief Erikson]

Okay. Interesting theories .

When the Jedi Order was at its height, Obi-Wan called Darth Maul a "disturbance in the Force". That happened in the very beginning of Episode 1. Maul would not have been a disturbance in the Force if he was actually helping to ease the imbalance in favor of the light side. He should not have been detected at all as a disturbance.

However, I think it is apparent from the movies that the Jedi are always seeking for the good. Doing good has turned out badly for the young unprepared Jedi, for the simple fact that they are young and unprepared. When a more experienced Jedi acts, the same problem does not exist. See Obi-Wan in "Attack of the Clones" as an excellent example of this. While tempted greatly by Lord Dooku, he refused to turn to the Dark Side. Contrast that strength with Anakin and Luke in the Episode 2s of the two separate trilogies. Luke and Anakin weren't participating in "extremism", and in my opinion, neither were the Sith. The Sith purposely chose the Dark Side, because it was much easier to gain great power through that source.

To support my own theory there are Obi-Wan's comments about the Force being able to "control your actions", Han's comments about "one all powerful Force controlling everything", Qui-Gon's comments that Jedi should follow the will of the Force, which implies that it has a will, a form of intelligence, and a purpose for good. The Jedi always strive to do good, rather then appearing to simply seek balance between good and evil. Remember that the Sith always are portrayed doing evil and the good Jedi are always portrayed as striving for good. In my opinion, anyway . If the Force is good and has a will for good, but can be used by others for evil, then that is a use against the Force's nature. An act against the nature of the Force can easily be termed and "imbalance", don't you think?

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

When the Jedi Order was at its height, Obi-Wan called Darth Maul a "disturbance in the Force". That happened in the very beginning of Episode 1. Maul would not have been a disturbance in the Force if he was actually helping to ease the imbalance in favor of the light side. He should not have been detected at all as a disturbance.

A disturbance in the Force does not necessarily mean a shifting away from perfect balance. During ESB, the Force is imbalanced towards the Dark Side, but the Emperor refers to Luke as a "disturbance."

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

However, I think it is apparent from the movies that the Jedi are always seeking for the good. Doing good has turned out badly for the young unprepared Jedi, for the simple fact that they are young and unprepared. When a more experienced Jedi acts, the same problem does not exist. See Obi-Wan in "Attack of the Clones" as an excellent example of this. While tempted greatly by Lord Dooku, he refused to turn to the Dark Side. Contrast that strength with Anakin and Luke in the Episode 2s of the two separate trilogies.

Indeed. A less experienced Jedi acts out of rashness, and as a result, any good deeds are turned to the opposite purpose.

A more experienced Jedi, in contrast, seldom acts at all. When A New Hope opens, Obi-Wan Kenobi has been in hermitage for "x" years. Yoda has withdrawn to Dagobah. Neither actively takes part in the battles. Even in the Death Star, Kenobi serves more as a guide.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Luke and Anakin weren't participating in "extremism", and in my opinion, neither were the Sith.

This depends on what you consider extremism. IMO, to uphold one side and reject the other is always "extremism."

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The Sith purposely chose the Dark Side, because it was much easier to gain great power through that source.

It's always easier to be out of balance.

Originally Posted by Leif Erikson

To support my own theory there are Obi-Wan's comments about the Force being able to "control your actions", Han's comments about "one all powerful Force controlling everything", Qui-Gon's comments that Jedi should follow the will of the Force, which implies that it has a will, a form of intelligence, and a purpose for good. The Jedi always strive to do good, rather then appearing to simply seek balance between good and evil. Remember that the Sith always are portrayed doing evil and the good Jedi are always portrayed as striving for good. In my opinion, anyway . If the Force is good and has a will for good, but can be used by others for evil, then that is a use against the Force's nature. An act against the nature of the Force can easily be termed and "imbalance", don't you think?

IMO, the Force is not good. It simply is. It does not have a purpose for good, it has a purpose. Putting value judgements on the Force seems to cheapen it. Credited to Embladyne, my partner in crime

So, I'm saying that the Force is and has a will. The way one uses it is up to the user. An act against its nature is an imbalance, perhaps, but do not forget that there is a "Dark Side" of the Force.

[Lief Erikson]

And I suppose that ends our discussion. I already responded to much of that earlier on. Some I agree with, of course.

[BeardofPants]

I wholly agree with Boggy there. I've always thought that the force just "is". As far as bringing balance to the force.... I'll admit that it perplexes me, but I've always thought that it was because Anakin/Emperor brought about the massive massacre against the jedi, and that it "evened" up the numbers, so to speak. Prolly completely wrong, but oh well.... it interests me!

[Lief Erikson]

It may all become clear in Episode 3.

[Lenya]

I wouldn't count on it. I think Star Wars was meant to have some mysteries.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

And I suppose that ends our discussion. I already responded to much of that earlier on. Some I agree with, of course.

You concede defeat? You are right, I think on many points we are agreeing, simply stating our beliefs in a way that makes them seem opposite, even though they are not.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I wholly agree with Boggy there. I've always thought that the force just "is". As far as bringing balance to the force.... I'll admit that it perplexes me, but I've always thought that it was because Anakin/Emperor brought about the massive massacre against the jedi, and that it "evened" up the numbers, so to speak. Prolly completely wrong, but oh well.... it interests me!

Thank you, Boppy. It seems to plausable to be completely wrong.

Originally Posted by Lenya

I wouldn't count on it. I think Star Wars was meant to have some mysteries.

I agree. We will probably still be able to debate this long after everything is over... like we do with Tolkien.

[Lief Erikson]

I certainly was NOT conceding defeat . I simply found that most of those arguments in your most recent post I'd already responded to earlier on. I wasn't interested in covering old territory. I once did that when debating theology with my older sister. We went on and on and on and on and on, and then we went into the same territory again- the argument turned circular. At that point there became no point in pursuing it. This has been fun, though. I wouldn't have known precisely what I thought about the balance of the Force, to speak truly, if not for this discussion. Now I'm done with it though. Adios .

[Elemmírë]

And such is the problem with all theological debate.

Namárië.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

As we all know there is a Prophecy in Star Wars that states that there will be a one that will have the power to bring the force into balance. Qui-Gon Jinn beleived this one was Anakin Skywalker, with the highest meteclorian count ever charted it seems plausable. A Human with more "force" in him than even Yoda himself. My question pretains to the idea of balanced. What exactlly is balance to George Lucas? There was a center for Jedi and the training of almost an army of Jedi. Where as the Sith were supposedly two, no more no less. Although I don't feel this is true as during the apprenticship of Darth Maul Count Dooku must have also been in the service of the sith, creating a paradox of three Sith at one time at least. However, that fact aside, there should only be two, master and aprentice. So, what balance is needed? The destruction of the Jedi till there is only two left? Wouldn't that be balanced?
Within the films we see Darth Vader return to Anakin Skywalker and destroy Darth Sideous creating an equality one Jedi one Sith; Luke and Vader. Then Luke watches Vader die and so the force is still unbalanced! This idea really boogles my mind because it never actually works! Any ideas on the whole Prophecy thing!?

As far as I know the sith are imbalence...

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

I agree. We will probably still be able to debate this long after everything is over... like we do with Tolkien.

That's what makes it so cool. You're not fed everything with a spoon, there is still stuff left to ponder about.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I think I have figured out the answer to my own question over time and research. The Sith are unbalanced as "me" said. The Jedi unlike the Sith are balanced in the force, they are not on the "Light Side" as most would infer. Also I came to realize that Anakin was "The One", he was the one who inevitably destroyed The Sith. It was because of his love for his children that the Dark Side bound was broken, anakin returned from Vader and conquered Darth Sidious. Even if Darth Vader hadn't died I think the galaxy would have balanced, Anakin had returned. There was, after Sidious died, two remaining Jedi, Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker.

[Lenya]

Good answer, sound logic to me. The only thing I'm baffled about is this: Yoda said that there's always 2, a master and an apprentince, but when Darth V was no more, there was only one sith left. I thought there has to be 2. Or was that the first step towards restoring the balance?