The Prophecy...?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

As we all know there is a Prophecy in Star Wars that states that there will be a one that will have the power to bring the force into balance. Qui-Gon Jinn beleived this one was Anakin Skywalker, with the highest meteclorian count ever charted it seems plausable. A Human with more "force" in him than even Yoda himself. My question pretains to the idea of balanced. What exactlly is balance to George Lucas? There was a center for Jedi and the training of almost an army of Jedi. Where as the Sith were supposedly two, no more no less. Although I don't feel this is true as during the apprenticship of Darth Maul Count Dooku must have also been in the service of the sith, creating a paradox of three Sith at one time at least. However, that fact aside, there should only be two, master and aprentice. So, what balance is needed? The destruction of the Jedi till there is only two left? Wouldn't that be balanced?
Within the films we see Darth Vader return to Anakin Skywalker and destroy Darth Sideous creating an equality one Jedi one Sith; Luke and Vader. Then Luke watches Vader die and so the force is still unbalanced! This idea really boogles my mind because it never actually works! Any ideas on the whole Prophecy thing!?

[Elessar the Elfstone]

I think Different people see the prophacy in different ways Qui gon and the other jedi thought the chosen one bringing the force into balance would mean something like turning the world into some type of utopia where the force is one with everybody.

but what it really meant was the force was unbalanced because there were 100's of jedi and only two sith so anikain balaces the force by becoming Darth Vader and wiping out all but two jedi Obi Wan and yoda here by forfilling the prophacy.

[Lief Erikson]

Here's one more opinion on the subject.

The Emperor is the imbalance. Destroying this vast evil is what brings balance to the Force.

Look at the Emperor's Force power. It is so great that it can, as Yoda puts it, "blind" the entire Jedi Order.

The Emperor is the most mysterious character in the Star Wars series, thus far. We know nothing about his origins: how he became such an astounding Sith Lord and such. Also, it would be useful to look at his brains. He is an incredibly clever man. His strategies are supremely cunning. He would have destroyed the rebels at Endor if not for circumstances beyond his control (the Ewoks). If Luke had sensed his friends dying, it is possible that he would have been more inclined to turn to the Dark Side as well.

I'm describing what an incredible individual Palpatine was in order to support my argument that he is the imbalance. He is one of the characters I really, really enjoy in the Star Wars series, though.

However, I will admit that there can certainly be more then one opinion on this. I've just stated mine .

[Lenya]

Did you guyz know that there are actually 9 movies in the saga, and that 7 - 9 has already been made? I don't know if they intend to show them, but I really hope so.

[BeardofPants]

Wrong. Lucas has not made, nor has no plans to make the star wars sequels. They have NOT been made.

[Elessar the Elfstone]

Lucus did once say it would be fun to come back in 10 years and make 7 8 and 9. I also remember watching the bonus DVD in the trilogy boxset and Mark Hamil said he would of liked to do more but then lucus said he isn't going to because it wouls mean writing a completly new story. he only did 1 2 and 3 because the story was already written and he just had to write the script.

So sorry no more Star Wars films after episode III

[Lenya]

It's sorry indeed. I hear what you say, but I remember reading something about it. I'll go and search for it in any case. But I hear what your saying, maybe it's only wishful thinking.

[Lenya]

OK, I found it (proving me wrong ) Lucas said he never intended to show them. Damn.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Here's one more opinion on the subject.

The Emperor is the imbalance. Destroying this vast evil is what brings balance to the Force.

I don't think so, Lief.

Wonderful. A potential debate where I can use my own philosophy instead of having to abide by the Christian perspective.

I don't think it can be argued that the Force is "good." There exists the Dark Side and the Light Side. Both are necessary and neither would exist without the other. At the time of the Old Republic, the future Emperor would most likely not have been an imbalance. During the Empire, however, this becomes an entirely different story.

IMHO, true balance seems to be a concept that is forever beyond reach. Desiring that balance is like desiring a world without change, one that would be forever stagnant.

That being said, it is likely that in order to bring balance to the Force, the Jedi of the Old Republic had to be wiped out. After that, however, the balance seems to have shifted entirely the other way. At some points, perhaps there was complete balance, but this position was not long maintained. After Vader died, perhaps the balance shifted back again towards the light.

If I remember correctly, all that was claimed was that Vader would balance the Force. And by wiping out the Jedi, he probably did so.

This doesn't mean that it would stay balanced.

[Lenya]

Agreeable. There is deffinately a Light Side and a Dark Side to the Force, though I don't believe that there has ever been a complete balance between them except maybe at the beginning of time. Since the Force is such a big thing in the Star Wars universe, I believe that when this balance is obtained, it will probably be the end of their universe.

[Elessar the Elfstone]

the force is neutral it is the person using the the force that decides where to use it for good or for evil, I believe there has to be an equal amount of light to dark for the force to be balanced. but must have only ever happened for a very short while when the universe was first created. the balance was almost reached again when the only force weilders in the galaxy were Yoda and Obi Wan, Vadar and palpatine. but the dark side at that point had a lot more influance because they were ruling the galaxy. but I also think it is impossible for the force to be perfectly balanced because one side will always be more influentual, unless nobody used the force for any reason when that goal is completed that would be the end of the universe.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

If I remember correctly, all that was claimed was that Vader would balance the Force. And by wiping out the Jedi, he probably did so.

Or perhaps he had to know both sides, had to have been part of both sides to acchieve this balance.

[Wayfarer]

Maybe, since 'always in motion, the future is', the prophecy actually had nothing to do with Anakin, and the person who had 'prophesied' it had really been just making a wild guess. That's my opinion.

[Elemmírë]

It would be.

Why would a Jedi (I'm assuming it was a Jedi) have made a wild guess about something like that? Keep in mind that when Yoda said that, he had basically told Luke that his friends were in a city among the clouds and, well... doomed. (paraphrasing, obviously... assuming I remember it correctly).

I talk "always in motion, the future is" to mean that because of the many different possible choices in the present, the probability of certain things happening in the future wasn't 100%, or even nearly. Basically, events are written on sand, not in stone.

I think for something to be considered a "prophecy" however, there would have to be a pretty good possibility of it coming to pass. More than a "wild guess," as you put it.

Anyway, it seems to have come true, at least in part.

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by Elessar the Elfstone

the force is neutral it is the person using the the force that decides where to use it for good or for evil, I believe there has to be an equal amount of light to dark for the force to be balanced. but must have only ever happened for a very short while when the universe was first created. the balance was almost reached again when the only force weilders in the galaxy were Yoda and Obi Wan, Vadar and palpatine. but the dark side at that point had a lot more influance because they were ruling the galaxy. but I also think it is impossible for the force to be perfectly balanced because one side will always be more influentual, unless nobody used the force for any reason when that goal is completed that would be the end of the universe.

Dude, that's exactly what a said a moment sooner :

Agreeable. There is deffinately a Light Side and a Dark Side to the Force, though I don't believe that there has ever been a complete balance between them except maybe at the beginning of time. Since the Force is such a big thing in the Star Wars universe, I believe that when this balance is obtained, it will probably be the end of their universe.

[Lief Erikson]

Elessar and Elemmire, although I don't have enough time to remember many quotes to support my position, here's one good one. Qui-Gon-Jinn talked about "Midi-clorians always speak to us and tell us the will of the Force." We're talking about one Force, not two forces, one Dark and one Light. Therefore this one Force has one will, and because Qui-Gon-Jinn says the Force is to be listened to and obeyed, the indication is strong that the Force is naturally good. Otherwise Qui-Gon wouldn't tell Anakin to listen to it. The Force seems from this brief conversation with Anakin even to have something of a mind of its own. People that misuse the Force, not obeying its will, would therefore be disturbances in the Force- imbalances.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We're talking about one Force, not two forces, one Dark and one Light. Therefore this one Force has one will, and because Qui-Gon-Jinn says the Force is to be listened to and obeyed, the indication is strong that the Force is naturally good.

Hey there, Lief.

You are correct. There are not two Forces and I don't believe anyone has been claiming that there are. There is one, which has both a dark aspect and a light aspect, thus you often hear references to the "Dark Side of the Force." If the Force was naturally good, these references could not exist.

I'll have arguments to back this up, but at the moment I'm wondering if a debate on the nature of the Force is relevent to a discussion of the Prophecy.
Is there another thread we could go to?

[Lief Erikson]

Well, opinions about the nature of the balance or imbalance to the Force in my opinion are very relevant to the discussion. How can one know what the prophecy means if one doesn't understand this point?

I will point out Elemmire that in your post you didn't touch at all on my argument regarding Qui-Gon's statements about midichlorians to Anakin. I suppose I'd have to wait on arguing your points until they come up . For the record here and now though, I don't think that saying that the Force has a Dark Side does mean that it is not good. I look upon people that use the Force in this way as misusers of the Force. There is not a "will of the Dark Side" that we know of, but only a will of the Force. This Force the Jedi listen to and obey. Therefore either the Force is good or the Jedi are bad. But something good can be misused. Misusing of good things can be very tempting. For example the Internet. It serves much good purpose, yet it can be used for evil, and using it for evil can be very tempting to some people. Those evil things are considered by governments and many civilized individuals to be essentially like "imbalance". The technology is good, but "the Internet has its Dark Side", which we impose on it. This Dark Side is imbalance also, and the Internet certainly could survive without it. It is a good thing that has a natural "will" designed by programers, which can be misused. The difficulty is that I think the Force seems more like a personal creature from Qui-Gon's conversation with Anakin, ("you will hear [the midichlorians] speaking to you, telling you the will of the Force") whereas the Internet is not as personal. This personal creature is being misused, mistreated, by the Emperor and other Dark Force users. The Internet might exist, but the "light side" does not work until users manipulate it. The "dark side" also does not work on its own. The Internet was programmed for the light side, therefore any dark side use is a misuse, an "imbalance", as it would be called in Star Wars. The Force is a somewhat different creature then the Internet, so I don't know if the word "balance" can be applied to the Force.

Anyway, there's my opinion on the references to the Dark Side.

[Elemmírë]

Alright. Operation Thread Hijack has officially begun.

Sorry, Lief. I didn't touch on everything before, and I'm not going to be able to until tomorrow now also...

I think the most interesting thing about the Force (and correct me if I'm wrong... my friends are watching RotK in my room, so I can't put the movies on ) is that Luke is never told to follow the "light side" of the Force.

In fact, unless I missed something (quite possible), the "light side" is never referred to at all. Only the Force, and the Dark Side of the Force.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that the Force is part neutral and part evil, but not at all good. Au contraire, I am actually trying to say that to follow the Force is to strive neither for good nor for evil, but to simply allow the Force to guide your steps and to live by it.

When one strives too much in either direction, one risks the chance of falling into the Dark Side. During the Empire Strikes Back (you'll notice I prefer to stick with the original trilogy), Luke is warned by Yoda that if he does the seemingly "right" thing and tries to save Han and Leia, he will risk all that they have fought for. He can never be considered an "evil" character, obviously, but by striving too much for "goodness" he constantly risks falling into the Dark Side.

You are either in balance, or out of balance.

I am tempted to say that being in balance is to be "good" and to follow the Force, and being out of balance is to fall into "evil" and into the Dark Side, but I am not sure if that is technically correct.

I'll add more later... my friend is getting horribly confused with the movie...

[edited] Need to go again in a minute... but I think some of this might actually not be in conflict with what you are saying.

Basically I'm looking at it from another philosophical and religious point of view.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

When one strives too much in either direction, one risks the chance of falling into the Dark Side. During the Empire Strikes Back (you'll notice I prefer to stick with the original trilogy), Luke is warned by Yoda that if he does the seemingly "right" thing and tries to save Han and Leia, he will risk all that they have fought for. He can never be considered an "evil" character, obviously, but by striving too much for "goodness" he constantly risks falling into the Dark Side.

Yoda was warning Luke that he might be able to help his friends, but Vader would capture him, seduce him to the Dark Side, and then that would be the end of the Rebel Alliance, "all they fought for". Rather like Anakin in Episode 2 trying to save Padmé at the expense of the Republic. "Help her you could, but you would destroy all she fought for . . ."