Themes of the Lord of the Rings

[Manveru]

I wanted to make this thread to discuss the themes in the Lord of the Rings, mainly the Christian themes because Tolkien was Catholic and added so many Christian themes to his saga. I mainly made this because I'll be writing an essay on the themes of the books so it would be cool to see everyone's opinions of the themes and find the themes that some people found that others didn't.

[The Gaffer]

Hello and welcome.

Here are my (atheist) themes:

Sacrifice: someone has to lose it to save it for others
Fraternal love: Sam and Frodo's relationship
Nobility: Aragorn
Feudalism: everyone knowing their place in society
Anti-technology: Saruman
The power of Nature: Old Forest, Bombadil, Treebeard

[Attalus]

There are also the themes of 1) no evil is inevitable if people of good will strive with all their hearts to defeat it, and 2) the magic and holiness of Nature, though the Gaffer touched on it.

[Valandil]

Take it easy guys... don't write Manveru's paper FOR him/her!!

[inked]

OK, Val, but he could go to Barnes and NObles and get a copy of The Lord OF the Rings: One Book to Rule Them All from the philosophy section and read that for research too. Now that would be research! Of course, here he runs the risks of Olmer, BoP, Inked, Nuvingiel, etc, etc. Which is worse?

[Nurvingiel]

Hey, what did I do? (I'm honoured to be included in your list though Inked. )

If we offer our opinions, we could help Manveru think of a good them, nothin wrong with that.

Don't forget though, that we could be *cough* wrong, so I suggest ultimately basing your paper on your own thoughts of the book.

Let's see... though I am Christian, I didn't find any Christian themes in the book. (Okay, I could find some if I tried, but that wasn't the significant message for me.)

I agree with a lot of what others have said. The main theme to me is that no one is who he appears. Especially Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Merry, Pippin, and Éowyn.

[inked]

Nurv,

Are you like totally out in la-la land (again )? Or are you just trying to weird out the newbie? Nobody is who they seem? Geez, you've been reading Freudian interpretations AGAIN haven't you?


Manveru,

Be careful! You could get some really weird stuff from this Entmoot group. Very interesting at times, but DEFINITIVELY WRONG at times, too. So be careful, be very very careful. Also, not everyone chooses to see the Christian themes that Tolkein averred in writing were there BUT on the other hand sometimes people push them TOO hard. So you have a delicate task before you. I really would recommend THE LETTERS OF JRR TOLKEIN as a starting point, if you have time. And I'll note a couple of sites where there are excellent discussions (IT IS NOT ONLY AT ENMOOT THAT WISDOM and error DWELL!!!) of these issues. What grade level we shooting for, Dude (assuming man=male, veru=true)?


edit: http://www.mvpc.net/pdfs/FindingGodi...kely122103.pdf

edit: SF-Fandom.com

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv,

Are you like totally out in la-la land (again )? Or are you just trying to weird out the newbie? Nobody is who they seem? Geez, you've been reading Freudian interpretations AGAIN haven't you?


Manveru,

Be careful! You could get some really weird stuff from this Entmoot group. Very interesting at times, but DEFINITIVELY WRONG at times, too. So be careful, be very very careful. Also, not everyone chooses to see the Christian themes that Tolkein averred in writing were there BUT on the other hand sometimes people push them TOO hard. So you have a delicate task before you. I really would recommend THE LETTERS OF JRR TOLKEIN as a starting point, if you have time. And I'll note a couple of sites where there are excellent discussions (IT IS NOT ONLY AT ENMOOT THAT WISDOM and error DWELL!!!) of these issues. What grade level we shooting for, Dude (assuming man=male, veru=true)?


edit: http://www.mvpc.net/pdfs/FindingGodi...kely122103.pdf

edit: SF-Fandom.com

Wow, interesting thread. Themes of LoTR: Good must, must resist evil, though nothing comes without cost, sometimes ultimate cost. Good contains the means of its own destruction. Self-sacrifice for the good of the whole. Honor. War is evil, though sometimes necessary. Those are a few that come to my mind. Certainly the theme of nature should be mentioned, as well as the nature of evil (which isn't absolute, but is certainly self-centered--sort of the inverse of the self-sacrifice theme)

FB

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv,

Are you like totally out in la-la land (again )? Or are you just trying to weird out the newbie? Nobody is who they seem? Geez, you've been reading Freudian interpretations AGAIN haven't you?

Gwwaaa?

Inked might not be making any sense, but he has some good ideas Manveru.

And there's no way FB would write his paper for him - he's a teacher!

[Manveru]

Originally Posted by inked

Manveru,

Be careful! You could get some really weird stuff from this Entmoot group. Very interesting at times, but DEFINITIVELY WRONG at times, too. So be careful, be very very careful. Also, not everyone chooses to see the Christian themes that Tolkein averred in writing were there BUT on the other hand sometimes people push them TOO hard. So you have a delicate task before you. I really would recommend THE LETTERS OF JRR TOLKEIN as a starting point, if you have time. And I'll note a couple of sites where there are excellent discussions (IT IS NOT ONLY AT ENMOOT THAT WISDOM and error DWELL!!!) of these issues. What grade level we shooting for, Dude (assuming man=male, veru=true)?

ya i know, i was looking for what other people think of the themes, i have already done alot of research on the web but ill probably check out the letters and those websites. btw, were shooting for grade 12 and yes i am a dude, but manveru is the elvish form of my real name.
Also what do you guys think of Aragorn being an archetypal hero?

[BeardofPants]

And what the heck is wrong with me?! I don't lead newbies astray.



Manveru, what do YOU think of Aragorn being an archetypal hero?

[inked]

Manveru,

Beware of BoP. Really!!! She steals pantsssssssss!!!!!!! And, she has allegedly not been deterred by kilts, kimonos, nappies, or (rumouredly) chastity belts worn over the trousers!!!!!!!!!!!! Steals pants all the time. DO NOT BE TAKEN IN/FROM/WHATEVER!

She has been known to have really good ideas and comments, too.

She also asks questions, as you have noted above, no doubt.

Aragorn is an archetypal hero, with the interesting kink that he is flawed. It is I think his flaws and his overcoming them that makes him archetypal. But more on that after you answer BoP .

[Nurvingiel]

Heya Manveru, been to the random name generator at the Barrow Downs?
*whistles innocently*
*looks at own name*

When you're done your paper, maybe you could post it here for us to read..?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Manveru

Also what do you guys think of Aragorn being an archetypal hero?

Yes.

He's the archetypical epic hero: middle aged, love/home often being a motivating factor, at least the hint of "fate" taking a hand, multiple battles/trials before success, liminal spaces, trip through an underworld or two, growth as a character in terms of leadership, the epic flaw,......etc.

[Manveru]

I think Aragorn definately shows most of the qualities of an archetypal hero:

• his father dies soon after he is born
• he is taken in by Elrond and is given the name Estel (Hope) to hide his ancestry
• he goes out on a series of 'errantries' to prove himself (these include him fighting for Gondor and Rohan, journeying as far as the sea of Rhun, and protecting the Shire and Bree. It is during these years that he meets Gandalf
• he joins the fellowship and is assisted by 'mythical beings' such as Galadriel and the Army of the Dead. During this time he has many trials including leading the fellowship from Moria, fighting at Helm's Deep, and going through the Dwimmorberg to save Minas Tirith.
• He becomes king of the reunited realms of Gondor and Arnor
• he settles down and marries the princess Arwen
• after many years of succesfull ruling he decides that his time is over and he lays down to die in Rath Dinen

Also Frodo has many qualities of the archetypal hero: early death of parents, he is taken in by Bilbo, goes on a quest to destroy the Ring, he is tempted many times to use the Ring, he is also assisted by 'mythical beings' such as Tom and Goldberry and Galadriel, he eventually destroys the Ring and is a hero in Gondor, he returns to the Shire but finds it different than what he remembers, he leaves Middle-Earth for Valinor and has everlasting life

Eowyn also seems to show a few of these qualities: her parents are killed when she is young so she is brought to live at Edoras with her uncle Theoden, she is unsatisfied with her life and wants to be a great warrior and win valour and renown on the battlefield and to have a glorious death in battle, she falls in love with Aragorn, but she is rejected, she seeks now for only death in battle, she follows Theoden's army as Dernhelm, she fights and kills the Witch King of Angmar and is feared to be dead, she is taken to the Houses of Healing where she walks in the gardens with Faramir, she falls in love with Faramir and no longer wishes for a death in battle, she marries Faramir and lives with him in Ithilien.

Anyway those are just some ideas, I'll expand on that later.

Heya Manveru, been to the random name generator at the Barrow Downs?

Haha no i've never seen that one before, Manveru is the actual elvish translation of my real name, i got it from this site:
http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cb046086/names.html

but ya sure I'll probably post it when I'm done (mid-december).

[Nurvingiel]

Those are some very good points about Frodo, Aragorn, and Éowyn. I'm looking forward to reading your essay. Are you going to compare the three characters? Interestingly, Aragorn and Éowyn have important roles in saving the world, and Frodo, with the help of Gollum (villain redeemed) actually does save the world.

[barrelrider110]

Christian themes, hmm. What about the suffering servant? (Sam is a prime example) Jesus is the suffering servant of the new testament, and is prophesized in the old testament in the writings of Isaiah. Google "Isaiah servant song" and you should come up with a host of references.

I also think one of hte most compelling themes in LotR is that of addiction (Gollum's addiction to the ring- "he loves it and hates it"-- so says Gandalf in Shadow of the Past).

Anyway, have fun, and you DO have to post that essay for us to read. I am looking forward to it.

[LickTheEnvelope]

Well seeing as how I don't subscribe to any 'one' religion I think from my point of view i'd have to say the theme I picked up from the books is that the most powerful seeming entities do not neccisarily have control over there power, and that those whom seem weak my actually be the strongest of will.

[Holbytla]

Themes ( in addition to those already mentioned);
Hope; ( never give up, always hang in there; give up hope and you' re lost). This is in my opinion one of the most important issues, and something to learn from.

Death; also one of the main themes as I see it ( although it may be more apparent in The Silmarillion). The feeling that everything must come to an end? The human urge for immortality, and also the jealousy of the Elves? The Elves not understanding death?

Aragorn and Arwen had to face this. Would there be bitterness?

The word that I think describes the book the best is melancholy.

Holbytla ( this Chianti is reeally good!)

[Kelawyn]

I'm glad you mentioned hope, as I think it is the most important theme. Gandalf renames Frodo as "Endurance beyond Hope" and Sam as "Hope Unquenchable." In Sam's song, he says, "above all shadows rides the sun," which I think is especially significant in the light of the Dawnless Day; (very Catholic) God reigns even in the most desperate hour, even in the face of the greatest evil.

And just as Sauron is partly the residual evil of Morgoth, Saruman is the residual evil of Sauron. So after Morgoth, Sauron still needs to be dealt with, and after Sauron is defeated, Saruman still needs to be dealt with. Sam sees a rather alarming vision of the Shire in Galadriel's Mirror, and he could have given up hope, but he doesn't and his beloved Shire is saved.

Since your paper is probably nearing done I think it OK to expand on my ideas FYI, I am writing a similar paper, but so far I have only jotted down my thoughts because it isn't due for a long time. Please post yours (I will not plagerize).