Do Elves have two forms?

[Curandir]

I'm re-reading LOTR in preparation for the next movie, (and I ran out of Sword of Truth books) and something jumps out to me that I've never noticed before in either LOTR or the Silmarillion, The Elves seem to have two distinct forms of being. When Frodo crosses the Fords with the nine on his heals I beleive it was Glorfindel <sp> who was behind him chaseing the nine seemed to change in essance to both Frodo and the wraiths. Now I don't remember them talking about this in Sil or anywhere else in LOTR. Can any of you set me straight?

[Khamûl]

Perhaps Glorfindel revealed himself in his full power and glory at the Ford. Gandalf says that Frodo saw him as he is on the other side. By 'the other side', I think Gandalf means as he is in the wraith world, because Frodo was slipping into wraith world after he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Maybe all elf lords glow brightly and appear with great power in the spirit world. As far as I know, no one else in LotR or the Silmarillion (I haven't finished it yet, though) has an encounter with an elf lord in the wraith world, so maybe that explains why you don't hear anymore about it.

[The Ringbearer]

After Gandalf came back from the dead, his clothes and hair were bright white too, and he had to wear a cloak so as not to blind anyone. Apparently, if you are an elf or Maia, etc, and you are killed, you are sent to Mandos(?), and you have a chance to go back. Glorfindel was killed by a Balrog( like Gandalf ) and when he was sent back I guess he was "white" as well. Correct me if I got something wrong.

[azalea]

Hmm.. Gollum describes how he hateses elves, especially noting about their bright shiny eyes. Maybe he saw them similarly to that (how Frodo did at the point in question) because he was close to the wraith world from having the ring for soooo long.

[Comic Book Guy]

This belongs to the Middle-Earth forum.

[HobbitChick88]

I thought that in the FOTR, it said something about Glorofindel being in two places @ once. It says that they live at once in both realms. Can anybody help me out on that? I'm a bit confused!

[Michael Martinez]

Gandalf did not go to Mandos when he died. In Letter 156, Tolkien speaks about Gandalf's death, and speculates on who, exactly, sent Gandalf back (of course, Tolkien knew, but he was trying to show that there was a higher authority than the Valar):

From Letter 156:

That I should say is what the Authority wish, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an ehancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Teoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather tan forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' -- no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a hidden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of the Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its gates destroyed -- and yet so powerful is the whole train human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands. In the end before he departs for ever he sums himself up: 'I was the enemy of Sauron.' He might have added: 'for that purpose I was sent to Middle-earth.' But by that he would at the end have meant more than at the beginning. He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done.' Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with the embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'....

Also, concerning Glorfindel, Khamul's answer is about as correct as you can get. Although Gandalf does not explicitly say that Frodo saw Glorfindel's spirit, Frodo was indeed half in the wraith world. He was on the verge of becoming a wraith because of the Morgul-wound.

In an essay he wrote very late in his life (Circa 1972), Tolkien stipulated that Glorfindel was released from Mandos early on because of the great sacrifice he made at Gondolin. And Tolkien also decided that Glorfindel had become enhanced:

...After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion [of the Noldor], he was released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him. He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had become now almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice. At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olorin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru. That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.

Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, no doubt at first by his own choice: Gondolin was destroyed, and all his kin had perished, and were still in the Halls of Waiting unapproachable by the living. But his long sojourn during the last years of the First Age, and at least far into the Second Age, no doubt was also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwe.

When did Glorfindel return to Middle-earth? This must probably have occurred before the end of the Second Age, and the 'Change of the World' and the Drowning of Numenor, after which no living embodied creature , 'humane' or of lesser kinds, could return from the Blessed Realm which had been 'removed from the Circles of the World'. This was according to a general ordinance proceeding from Eru Himself; and though, until the end of the Third Age, when Eru decreed that the Dominion of Men must begin, Manwe could be supposed to have received the permission of Eru to make an exception in his case, and to have devised some means for the transportation of Glorfindel to Middle-earth, this is improbable and would make Glorfindel of greater power and importance than seems fitting.

We may then best suppose that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, before the 'shadow' fell on Numenor, and while the Numenoreans were welcomed by the Eldar as powerful allies. His return must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them. It might, therefore, have been as early as Second Age 1200, when Sauron came in person to Lindon, and attempted to deceive Gil-galad, but was rejected and dismissed. But it may have been, perhaps more probably, as late as c.1600, the Year of Dread, when Barad-dur was completed and the One Ring forged, and Celebrimbor at last became aware of the trap into which he had fallen. For in 1200, though he was filled with anxiety, Gil-galad still felt strong and able to treat Sauron with contempt. Also at that time his Numenorean allies were beginning to make strong permanent havens for their great ships, and also many of them had actually begun to dwell there permanently. In 1600 it became clear to all the leaders of Elves and Men (and Dwarves) that war was inevitable with Sauron, now unmasked as a new Dark Lord. They therefore began to prepare for his assault; and no doubt urgent messages and prayers asking for help were received in Numenor (and in Valinor).

People should keep in mind that this essay was written about 30 years after Tolkien introduced Glorfindel to the text of The Lord of the Rings. In his original conception, Glorfindel was only going to speak (at the Council of Elrond) of his ancestry in Gondolin. But Tolkien dropped that point, and only later concluded that the two Glorfindels were the same person. Hence, Gandalf's words do not reflect the thought which went into the Glorfindel essay (actually the second of two essays on Glorfindel that Tolkien wrote late in his life).

[Comic Book Guy]

This is from Nolendil.

Everyone has two forms. It is not just the "wraith world" that Gandalf speaks
of, it is the "unseen world". The idea is that there is an entire world
co-existant with our own that goes completely unseen to mortal eyes. When
Elves fade -- when their spirit at least becomes stronger than their body and
consumes it -- they go into the unseen world, where they are not visable to
us. When Frodo puts on the One Ring, he is halfway into the world. The Nazgûl
are completely in this unseen world, but they were "real" clothing so as to
interact with "us" on a physical plane. Thus when Frodo puts on the Ring he
sees the Nazgûl as they are on the other side. It is his Barrow-blade wound
and the Ring itself (which heightens Frodo's senses to such things) which
allows Frodo to get a glimpse of Glorfindel on the "other side", in the
unseen realm. All Elves who live or had lived in the Blessed Realm live in
both realms and observe both. Thus Glorfindel has power over both the seen
and the unseen.

Frodo and Sam both have "otherworldly'" glimpses. Frodo briefly sees Aragorn
wearing mail and good, clean clothing by Dol Amroth, when Aragorn says
softly: "Arwen vanimelda, namárië", "Arwen fair-beloved, farewell". Frodo got
a glimpse of the past. Samwise once sees a terrible image of his master
standing over Gollum, robed in white. This is a glimpse of Frodo on the other
side and Sam was able to see because he had worn the Ring.

This sort of information is I think scattered throughout different books.

[HobbitChick88]

How delightfully clear as mud! Just kidding, Thanx 4 your help!

[Wayfarer]

I would say that it's less a matter of having two distinct forms as it is of existing across a spectrum.

For example, when frodo saw glorfindel, he also noticed 'shadowy figures'- aragorn and the hobbits.

The conclusion I draw is that everyone exists in both worlds, do a different degree. The ainur do not manifest int eh seen except through an act of will, while men, on the other hand, are almost totally corporeal. It takes some kind of sorcery to give them the boost they need to act in the wraith world.

This also explains quite a few other things, such as why the ringbearers were immortal, why they became invisible, and why why they eventually couldn't return to the flesh.

[Ñólendil]

That really does clarify things Wayfarer, thanks. The post I had Comic Book Guy post for me was typed think late night when I was tired. I am not have been too clear.

An occurance I read again recently: When Aragorn reveals himself to Éomer as the heir of Elendil, Legolas sees a white flame on his brow like a crown.

[Linarryl]

Hmmmm... I never thought of that...