The drowning of Numenor

[CrazySquirrel]

Split of from the Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship?-thread. This thread is to discuss the drowning of Numenor and its aspects.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Hrm, I wonder what brought that idea to you - the valar clearly recognize the children of Eru as being the culmination of Creation.

Eru was not that nice to his children. Don't forget what he did with Numenor - the whole island with all its population, not just the fleet!

Originally Posted by Landroval

For one, it was him who propose the would be suicide attack on Mordor, in which he would be a chief bait.

And with him was the new-found King of Gondor and about 6-7 thousand mortal soldiers. Gandalf included all of them in this "bait". And they were mortal, expendable guys, not like our undestructible Maia. If "killed", he would have returned to Valinor, perhaps to be reincarnated again....

[Landroval]

Don't forget what he did with Numenor - the whole island with all its population, not just the fleet!

A land where humans sacrificed, tortured humans in the temple of Melkor, where they slayed each other with swords in madness and cursed themselves in agony; they hunted the Men of Middle-Earth and enslaved them. They didn't repent even when the lightning strikes of the eagles hit them, nor when the earthquake was given a final warning. More or less, they were beyond redemption, and their acts too cruel. Given the strength of the future kingdom of Gondor, it is likely that should Numenor have survive, it would have continued to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner.

And with him was the new-found King of Gondor and about 6-7 thousand mortal soldiers.

There would have been "no new age" should this diversion never occured - the hobbits couldnt have reached Mount Doom, and even if they werent caught, the armies of Sauron would have soon overwhelmed all Middle Earth.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Landroval

A land where humans sacrificed, tortured humans in the temple of Melkor, where they slayed each other with swords in madness and cursed themselves in agony; they hunted the Men of Middle-Earth and enslaved them. They didn't repent even when the lightning strikes of the eagles hit them, nor when the earthquake was given a final warning. More or less, they were beyond redemption, and their acts too cruel. Given the strength of the future kingdom of Gondor, it is likely that should Numenor have survive, it would have continued to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner..

Yes they did all this but following whose advice? A certain Zigur-Sauron, one of the Ainu, most persuasive creature, especially with his Ruling Ring.
Eru has drowned not only those who committed crimes, but also innocent children, and fair maidens, and old people, and all the books and objects of art etc... Yes, he destroyed Sauron, that's what he wanted when toppling the island. It was simply hunting a fly with a hammer!

Originally Posted by Landroval

There would have been "no new age" should this diversion never occured - the hobbits couldnt have reached Mount Doom, and even if they werent caught, the armies of Sauron would have soon overwhelmed all Middle Earth.

I never said the diversion was a bad idea.Yes, it was necessary. But Gandalf in this was much less self-sacrificing than sacrificing the nameless soldiers that marched with him. And many of them died at the Morannon.


Now back to the topic of the thread. Why Merry and Pippin?

I agree with Olmer. Clearly the extra hobbits were needed to carry the Ring, if the Ringbearer was killed. And it is not so much Gandalf's and Elrond's decision in Rivendell that matters, it is the original company that set off from the Shire.

Gandalf APPOINTED Sam to go with Frodo (as a "punishment" for eavesdropping). And Sam invited Merry and Pippin (also very probably following Old Gandy's advice). Sam admits to Frodo at Crickhollow:

‘Yes, sir!’ said Sam. ‘Begging your pardon, sir! But I meant no wrong to you, Mr. Frodo, nor to Mr. Gandalf for that matter. He has some sense, mind you; and when you said go alone, he said no! take someone as you can trust.’

So he wanted SEVERAL hobbits to come from the Shire to Rivendell with the Ring. They were poor protection against nazgul - had Gandalf known about nazgul looking for Frodo, he would have sent at least several Rangers with them, or would have come himself. No, he wanted them as spare ringbearers for later, when the road becomes dangerous. And where can one find a hobbit in Rivendell?

[Landroval]

A certain Zigur-Sauron, one of the Ainu, most persuasive creature, especially with his Ruling Ring.

He didnt have his ring in Numenor, or at least he didnt use it; in Silmarillion, in The downfall of Numenor, it is stated that after the drowning, "he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur". Moreover, even before his coming, the numenoreans were walking towards their world domination. One could say that his coming to Numenor only hastened things, for good and for bad.

Concerning all the inhabitants of the sunken island, you have yet to address the fact that they would have returned to their policy of enslavement after the attack on Valinor, given the environment in which they grew; furthermore, they were subject to punishment by crossing the ban of the valar, a ban directly derrived from Eru's will that the destiny of his children regarding their life length shouldnt be change.

Yes, he destroyed Sauron, that's what he wanted when toppling the island. It was simply hunting a fly with a hammer!

Is there anything to back that idea?

And they were mortal, expendable guys, not like our undestructible Maia.

Indestructible? In what sense?

But Gandalf in this was much less self-sacrificing than sacrificing the nameless soldiers that marched with him.

How was his sacrifice any less?

Gandalf APPOINTED Sam to go with Frodo (as a "punishment" for eavesdropping). And Sam invited Merry and Pippin (also very probably following Old Gandy's advice). Sam admits to Frodo at Crickhollow:

He appointed him to go only to Rivendell. Later on, the hobbits are addmitted in the fellowship against _"great wisdom"_, as Gandalf tells Elrond.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

He didnt have his ring in Numenor, or at least he didnt use it; in Silmarillion, in The downfall of Numenor, it is stated that after the drowning, "he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur". Moreover, even before his coming, the numenoreans were walking towards their world domination. One could say that his coming to Numenor only hastened things, for good and for bad.

I believe Sauron had his ring with him in Numenor . Please, have a look at this excellent FAQ threadFAQ of the Rings
Here is the part about Numenor

Where was the One Ring while Sauron was in Númenor?
On his finger.

"He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans." [L #211 (279)]

Tolkien's very clear statement agrees with the logic of Sauron's character. Sauron had two choices: take the ring with him to Númenor, or leave it in Middle-earth. But nowhere there would be safe, from his point of view: while he spent decades in Númenor, anyone might have found the Ring and claimed it. Sauron would never risk that.

Some people are misled by Tolkien's statement that Sauron "took up again" the Ring after making himself a new body [Silm: Rings (292)]. All that means is that he first completed the new body, then turned again to his plans for world domination.

See also:

"Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring" back to Middle-earth after the drowning of Númenor." [L #211 (280)]

[Landroval]

I believe Sauron had his ring with him in Numenor . Please, have a look at this excellent FAQ threadFAQ of the Rings
Here is the part about Numenor

Well, I guess that settles the ring issue . An excellent FAQ indeed.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Concerning all the inhabitants of the sunken island, you have yet to address the fact that they would have returned to their policy of enslavement after the attack on Valinor, given the environment in which they grew; furthermore, they were subject to punishment by crossing the ban of the valar, a ban directly derrived from Eru's will that the destiny of his children regarding their life length shouldnt be change.

My point was that Ar-Pharazon and his fleet broke the ban of the Valar and yes, THEY deserved punishment. So why not just sink the fleet? Don't tell me Ulmo couldn't do that!

The innocent civilians in Numenor broke no ban, but they died a horrible death nonetheless. Eru decided they were expendable.

I doubt, that after the destruction of the fleet, the remaining women and children would have been much of a threat to the Middle Earth. And don't forget that Elendil, Isildur and Anarion also grew in THAT environment, so why spare them?

Originally Posted by Landroval

Is there anything to back that idea?.

Eru's desire to punish Sauron is the only REASONABLE explanation for his horrible cruelty. Otherwise, it is even worse, IMHO, just the God's tantrum.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Indestructible? In what sense??

You kill him and after a month he is there again, better than before. If killed again, Olorin the Maia will be walking all young and carefree in the fair Valinor. That is why I think his sacrifice was less than any mortal's.

Originally Posted by Landroval

He appointed him to go only to Rivendell. Later on, the hobbits are addmitted in the fellowship against _"great wisdom"_, as Gandalf tells Elrond.

That was a statement made for the hobbit ears. He couldn't really tell them why they were needed, could he?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

My point was that Ar-Pharazon and his fleet broke the ban of the Valar and yes, THEY deserved punishment. So why not just sink the fleet? Don't tell me Ulmo couldn't do that!

The innocent civilians in Numenor broke no ban, but they died a horrible death nonetheless. Eru decided they were expendable.

a) Were there innocent civilians in Numenor? The Akallabeth indicates that all but the faithful took part in Sauron's religion and grumbled against the ban, that makes them guilty. The faithful were with Elendil. b) compare to the flood story in the Bible, Tolkien even says in one of the letters that Elendil is a "Noah figure."

I doubt, that after the destruction of the fleet, the remaining women and children would have been much of a threat to the Middle Earth. And don't forget that Elendil, Isildur and Anarion also grew in THAT environment, so why spare them?

Read the Akallabeth

Eru's desire to punish Sauron is the only REASONABLE explanation for his horrible cruelty. Otherwise, it is even worse, IMHO, just the God's tantrum.

According to Tolkien in the letters, it is meant to be humanity's "second fall" or at least akin to it. There is no indication that it was done specifically to "get Sauron" or that Sauron's presence on Numenor had anything to do with the act.

You kill him and after a month he is there again, better than before. If killed again, Olorin the Maia will be walking all young and carefree in the fair Valinor. That is why I think his sacrifice was less than any mortal's.

True, I'd agree with this, if you can measure self-sacrifice, then a human,hobbit, or elf's self-sacrifice is more "dire" in that sense than a Maia. But can we truly measure self-sacrifice?

That was a statement made for the hobbit ears. He couldn't really tell them why they were needed, could he?

Well, unless you're of the Olmer school and it appears you are, he did tell them why they were needed.

[Landroval]

There is little to add to Forkbeard's excellent post; as far as Gandalf's reincarnation possiblity is concerned (which is a far cry from indestructibility and we have no idea whether it is a repeatable event either), Tolkien, in his letter #153, doesn't exclude the possibility of reincarnation for Men too.

[The Gaffer]

An interesting thread. Just got an observation:

Death was the "Gift of Iluvatar" to Men. It was Melkor who made it fearful. So, the more Men went over to the "dark side" as it were, the more they feared it. However, Death itself was a release from the world, so no tremendous punishment in the eyes of Iluvatar.

Just wait till Mandos got hold of 'em.

[Gordis]

A very clever observation, The Gaffer. I tended to agree with CS, but now I think that you may be right: perhaps Eru didn't consider a violent death as much of a punishment, simply a transition into the other life outside the Circles of the world.

It matches the fact that Ar-Pharazon's fea has been entrapped: he will lay buried in Valinor till the Last Battle. He and his soldiers were punished more than the others.

[CrazySquirrel]

Some read the Akkalabeth and see a just punishment of a loving father to his stray children. Some see a crime against humanity.

It is simply the way you look on things personally. I am of the latter, Forkbeard and Landroval seem to be of the former.

I can only say that Tolkien himself and Tolkien's own characters were not so cold-hearted:

Then suddenly fire burst from the Meneltarma, and there came a mighty wind and a tumult of the earth, and the sky reeled, and the hills slid, and Númenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its halls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever. And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-MÃ*riel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for the waters overtook her, and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind.

‘It reminds me of Númenor,’ said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak.
‘Of Númenor?’ said Éowyn.
‘Yes,’ said Faramir, ‘of the land of Westernesse that foundered and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.’

Dosn't look like a simple chastisement of a loving father, if the descendants of those who survived have nightmares about it three thousand years after the event?

Moreover, consider that Akkalabeth was meant to be written by Elendil himself - one of the few who were "rightful", the one who was spared by the Valar, because his father Amandil betrayed the King and the cause of Numenoreans and sneaked to Valinor to ask "mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver"- but it was only mercy upon his family and his followers that he got..

But whether or no it were that Amandil came indeed to Valinor and Manwë hearkened to his prayer, by grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day.

The story written by the one who ran from the sinking Numenor like a rat from a sinking ship, is still filled with grief and horror. I imagine what a story written by a Black Numenorean would be like!

Originally Posted by Gordis

I tended to agree with CS, but now I think that you may be right: perhaps Eru didn't consider a violent death as much of a punishment, simply a transition into the other life outside the Circles of the world.

Eru never understood Men. His Gift... thanks for such a Gift. It was not a good gift if almost everyone deemed his life span too short, and didn't want to die. And if Eru though a violent death a trivial thing, than his understanding was poor indeed.

And what right did Eru have to kill any of his children?
Has a father the right to kill his children? No, it is a crime, and the culprit will end his days in jail. And rightly, even though for believers death is only a transition into a better world.

[The Gaffer]

There is a specific reference in the Silmarillion to how Men did not fear death until Melkor made it fearful.

So, maybe it was a great gift "which even the Powers shall envy ere the end" (can't remember where that quote comes from.

It's not Eru's fault that we're a bunch of ungrateful bar stewards.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

There is a specific reference in the Silmarillion to how Men did not fear death until Melkor made it fearful.

So, maybe it was a great gift "which even the Powers shall envy ere the end" (can't remember where that quote comes from.

It's not Eru's fault that we're a bunch of ungrateful bar stewards.

We are what we are. So what? Destroy the mankind?

If Morgoth has 'worked" on us, that is not our fault. There is always an Ainu at the bottom of all our troubles.

Reread Arwen's last words to Aragorn. She had not been influenced by Morgoth when she said:

"I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."

It is interesting "as the Eldar say". Perhaps it was only the Eldar POV and those who hearkened to them? Perhaps Eru himself would have laughed at that definition?

[Landroval]

A precedent for Eru's intervention in his Children's life is when he shortened their life length the moment they began worshiping Melkor; however, for reasons presented, there was no desire of repentance from the Numenoreans.

Dosn't look like a simple chastisement of a loving father, if the descendants of those who survived have nightmares about it three thousand years after the event?

We must also aknowledge factors outside the story when judging it; as Tolkien himself states, he has an "Atlantis complex", which compelled him to a certain extent to write about... sinking a great island . To this is also attributed Faramir's dream:

Originally Posted by Letter #163

I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.)

[Rían]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

It is interesting "as the Eldar say". Perhaps it was only the Eldar POV and those who hearkened to them? Perhaps Eru himself would have laughed at that definition?

But the Eldar had been in communication with the Valar, who were in communication with Eru.

I can't remember a lot about the different places where the idea of a gift is talked about - certainly in the Athrabeth, but I can't remember who "recorded" that conversation ... IIRC, Andreth (a human woman) relayed it as a legend of the wise among her people.

[Landroval]

The perception of death as a gift is presented more in Silmarillion ("death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy" - chapter one); in the Athrabeth, Andreth presents the interesting idea that death was the result of Melkor's marring - not their initial 'design').

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Given the strength of the future kingdom of Gondor, it is likely that should Numenor have survive, it would it would have continued to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

The Akallabeth indicates that all but the faithful took part in Sauron's religion and grumbled against the ban.The faithful were with Elendil

O, yeah.. Even just born babies were taking part in Sauron’s religion by filling their diapers with evil smell. Guilty!!!
Bad Numenor went down.
What was left out? “Faithful� Numenoreans!! Who continued “to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner�, but now they were not restricted by any boundaries and their playfield widened out far beyond horizon.
Did you see “improvement� in the Grand Design?
So what was the point to kill so called “evil men, evil women, evil children, evil cats and evil chickens�?
I'm absolutely agree with Crazy Squirrel statement that such acts of Eru couldn't be called anything less as a "crime against humanity", unless we will agree on conception that the Higher beings are devoid of any feelings and centiments, and all their action are beyond "good" or "evil", because by their nature they did not see any difference between it, and therefore can't be judged by people's standarts.

Originally Posted by Landroval

... in the Athrabeth, Andreth presents the interesting idea that death was the result of Melkor's marring - not their initial 'design').

I missed that .Can you give a quote?

[Landroval]

Who continued “to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner�, but now they were not restricted by any boundaries and their playfield widened out far beyond horizon

"The world was diminished" according to Akallabeth - where from do you get the greater playfield ? And how was the oppression of the numenoreans continued?

I missed that .Can you give a quote?

Sure:

Yet among my people, from Wise unto Wise out of the darkness, comes the voice saying that Men are not now as they were, nor as their true nature was in their beginning. And clearer still is this said by the Wise of the People of Marach, who have preserved in memory a name for Him that ye call Eru, though in my folk He was almost forgotten. So I learn from Adanel. They say plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness whom they do not name.
…
The Wise among Men say: "We were not made for death, nor born ever to die. Death was imposed upon us."

[CrazySquirrel]

A very interesting quote, thanks, Landroval!

You see, Eru never spoke to Men directly, did he? So all they have are old tales, either coming from the Eldar, or invented by Men themselves.

Men never wanted Death and blamed it on Melkor.
Elves and Ainur, deathless themselves, imposed that tale of a "Gift" on Men, but it never really worked.

What Eru himself planned and designed is just unknown, except in rendition or interpretation.

And Eru hardly had any emotions, baring childish anger, when His plans went astray.

(I think Tolkien was fascinated by the difference in Mannish and Elvish traditions, he has even rewritten Akkalabeth several times to match Mennish and Elvish-Faithful Numenorean POV's)