seven times the years...

mallondwen · 01-21-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

The Voice of Saruman
'The Watchwood we will call it. Not a squirrel will go here, but I shall know of it. Leave it to the Ents! Until seven times the years in which he tormented us have passed, we shall not tire of watching him [Saruman].

ok, I am wondering, why 'seven times the years in which he tormented us?' I mean, I know that Saruman had been cutting down the trees for about eight months by then, cause he started about the time that he imprisoned Gandalf which was in July, it was now March. It hasn't even been a year yet. So I guess my question is: Is this just a metaphor Treebeard is using to imply 'a very long time' or, is it literal? If so, why this time period, 'seven times the years in which he tormented us'...?

Any thoughts are most welcome.

Embladyne · 01-21-2005, 09:41 PM

I always assumed that was some sort of entish ideosyncracy. arg...cannot spell.
However, it is similar wording to the phrase seventy times seven, which is used in the bible to refer to a very large amount of things, or time. And, so, perhaps, Tolkien drew inspiration from that phrasing...

Wayfarer · 01-21-2005, 11:39 PM

Saruman had already began cutting down trees before gandalf was captured - he had simply left the trees within Isengard itself standing in order to maintain the illusion of normalcy until he was ready to spring his plans.

Bombadillo · 01-22-2005, 03:31 AM

Maybe, since random numbers were placed in ancient dialogue in key parts of the Bible that could not possibly have been quoted accurately, Tolkien decided to do something similar to emphasize the legendary proportions of the Ents' glory (or he intended it to sound like Frodo making this distinction while recording his journey). I doubt it, but that would be cool.

ItalianLegolas · 01-22-2005, 01:24 PM

probably just implying a very long time, annd to ents, a long time is a very looooooooooooooooooong time indeed

Manveru · 01-23-2005, 02:40 PM

well in the book of revelations in the bible 4 signifies the world, 6 imperfection, 7 totality or perfection, 12 israels tribes or the apostles, and 1000 is immensity.

Embladyne · 01-23-2005, 03:17 PM

Yeah, I really love the symbolism of numbers in the bible...and I think Tolkien wanted to apply some of that symbolism and coolness to the Ents...

**Nurvingiel** · 01-24-2005, 05:49 PM

If Treebeard meant that literally, about 7 (EDIT: because he had tormented them about 1 year) years is a very short time for an Ent. If he meant it symbolically, why 7?

Ironically, Saruman talked his way out not too long after that.

Blackheart · 01-24-2005, 05:53 PM

Reference the book of genisis, regarding the punishment of Cain...

And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Seven is the number of secrets and magic...

***Rían*** · 01-24-2005, 08:14 PM

What was that Gilbert and Sullivan song with "fifty-fold"? Now it's bugging me!

***Rían*** · 01-24-2005, 08:25 PM

Oh yeah, I think it's something like "We'll seek a penalty - fifty fold! For General Stanley's stooorrrrr-y!" from Pirates of Penzance.

Forkbeard · 01-25-2005, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

If Treebeard meant that literally, about 7 (EDIT: because he had tormented them about 1 year) years is a very short time for an Ent. If he meant it symbolically, why 7?

Ironically, Saruman talked his way out not too long after that.

Symbolically, 7 indicates fullness, completenessm fulfillment and the like.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 01-25-2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Symbolically, 7 indicates fullness, completenessm fulfillment and the like.

so basically, until the fullness of time has elapsed?

Durin1 · 01-25-2005, 11:35 AM

Or it could be that we are reading too much into it

mallondwen · 01-25-2005, 03:00 PM

I had thought of the Bible references myself but I was not sure if Tolkien was thinking along those lines when he wrote it, but perhaps he was, who knows. Thanks for the input everyone.

01-21-2005, 09:41 PM	#2
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	I always assumed that was some sort of entish ideosyncracy. arg...cannot spell. However, it is similar wording to the phrase seventy times seven, which is used in the bible to refer to a very large amount of things, or time. And, so, perhaps, Tolkien drew inspiration from that phrasing... __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

01-21-2005, 11:39 PM	#3
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Saruman had already began cutting down trees before gandalf was captured - he had simply left the trees within Isengard itself standing in order to maintain the illusion of normalcy until he was ready to spring his plans. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-22-2005, 03:31 AM	#4
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	Maybe, since random numbers were placed in ancient dialogue in key parts of the Bible that could not possibly have been quoted accurately, Tolkien decided to do something similar to emphasize the legendary proportions of the Ents' glory (or he intended it to sound like Frodo making this distinction while recording his journey). I doubt it, but that would be cool. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity?

01-22-2005, 01:24 PM	#5
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	probably just implying a very long time, annd to ents, a long time is a very looooooooooooooooooong time indeed __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-23-2005, 02:40 PM	#6
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	well in the book of revelations in the bible 4 signifies the world, 6 imperfection, 7 totality or perfection, 12 israels tribes or the apostles, and 1000 is immensity. __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

01-23-2005, 03:17 PM	#7
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	Yeah, I really love the symbolism of numbers in the bible...and I think Tolkien wanted to apply some of that symbolism and coolness to the Ents... __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

01-24-2005, 05:53 PM	#9
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Reference the book of genisis, regarding the punishment of Cain... And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. Seven is the number of secrets and magic... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

01-24-2005, 08:14 PM	#10
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	What was that Gilbert and Sullivan song with "fifty-fold"? Now it's bugging me! __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

01-24-2005, 08:25 PM	#11
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Oh yeah, I think it's something like "We'll seek a penalty - fifty fold! For General Stanley's stooorrrrr-y!" from Pirates of Penzance. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

01-25-2005, 11:35 AM	#14
Durin1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 221	Or it could be that we are reading too much into it __________________ Durin the Sleepless!

01-25-2005, 03:00 PM	#15
mallondwen Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Eryn Ithilien Posts: 238	I had thought of the Bible references myself but I was not sure if Tolkien was thinking along those lines when he wrote it, but perhaps he was, who knows. Thanks for the input everyone. __________________ “To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying, The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying. West, west away, the round sun is falling. Grey ship, grey ship, do you hear them calling, The voices of my people that have gone before me? I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me; For our days are ending and our years failing. I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing. Long are the waves on the Last Shore falling, Sweet are the voices in the lost Isle calling, In Eresëa, in Elvenhome that no man can discover, Where the leaves fall not: land of my people forever!”

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
The Emperor's Origins	Lief Erikson	The Star Wars Saga	39	10-29-2005 04:59 PM
Lost Years of Merlin series	umbardacil	Fantasy and Sci-Fi Novels	7	12-04-2004 09:06 PM
How Many Times is Everybody Planning on Watching this Movie?	Merlin	Lord of the Rings Movies	31	12-27-2002 04:41 AM
How Many Times?	GandalfTheWhite	Lord of the Rings Books	23	04-01-2002 12:48 PM
How many times have you read LOTR?	kcbob	Lord of the Rings Books	65	08-31-2000 08:07 PM