Should evolution be taught in schools?

[katya]

Originally posted by RÃ*an


...as opposed to the offshoot idea of the theory of evolution with an intelligent being giving little gentle nudges to things at critical points. Or do you people want to discuss both?)

I have often wondered about that theory. I mean, why not, eh? If you were God would you rather just be like "poof here's a nice CD" or would you actually play the music first? Like a symphony. It seems odd that something would move without anything to make it move, or for say an atom to just do what it does because "it's just like that" or "because the nature of an atom is this and so it does this." Or what's more that whole ecosystems would evolve to be like so one "organism*" could fit in with the others (there may be some disagreement about how much this is true to begin with). Just a thought.

*It was so funny one time in English we had vocabulary and one of the words was organism, and this one kid raised his hand and he was like "what's an orgasm?" all innocently...yeah that's my story for the day.

[entss89]

to say it flat and straght
NO.........
i dont believe in all this monkey crap! i think its wrong to put stuff in childrens mind that maybe a christian or something! and for one thing im a cristian so i think that there were no monkeys here that just happened to turn into us! now my ? is if we were monkeys then why are there still monkeys on earth? did they fail thier monkey evolution in school? he he ! but this is no joke i think it is wrong for these stupid teachers to talk about something totally nonsense! woooo im tired!

[Fred Baggins]

Argh I am probably kill myself for getting caught up in this discusion but here goes...

I am as well a Christian, and belive in the creation theory. I have heard MANY facts supporting it as well, and not I assure you just from the Bible, though I belive every word of the Bible. I have tried to learn what I can about PHYSICAL evidence to support the creation theory. I will not put it down here, because it will take up to much room. But I geuss what I am saying is that evolution should not be taught as a rule, as a positive thing, but as a theory. As well I think that the creation should be taught as a theory. Something that you can belive if that is what makes more since to you.

[Rían]

whoa, there - I just got home and everyone is agreeing?

I was hoping someone would have addressed crickhollow's post about macro evolution by the time I got home. Actually, though, *checks thread title* if we are only to answer "should it be taught", I'll say sure, as one possibility, creation by intelligent design being another.

Does anyone want to discuss the merits/problems of the theory of evolution, or should we just close the thread and move on to, um, genocide (my goodness, what made you think of that topic - did you have a really difficult day or something? I think I'll pass on that one)

[Rían]

wow, 3 people posted while I was typing in my previous post, and now it seems we don't all agree. Well, my previous question stands - shall we discuss the merits/problems of the theory, or just should/shouldn't teach it? I'm up for either.

[katya]

How about another thing we can all agree on:

George Bush looks like a monkey!!!!!!

No but seriously though RÃ*an I think we are only talking about whether it should be taught. Otherwise I would run and hide and wait for it to be all over. No one seems to be open minded enough to listen to others and you know we can't come to a real solid conclusion anyway so why bother talking about evolution vs. Creation. Seriously.

Bush looks like a monkey!!! hahaha!!! monkey!!!!

NO evolution or science teaching in school!!! no!!! so...boring! no... must...not...fall...asleep...life cycle of a moss....no...zzzzzzz

(sorry I have had a very intersting day today. I am so out of it. All my posts seem to reflect that. and i keep having urges to spam. must resist.)

[Lady Vixen]

No

[Lizra]

I don't call it a theory. I believe!

[IronParrot]

In response to the "evolution is just a theory" argument:

There is a huge difference between evolution as a theory and creation as a theory.

Evolution, like Newtonian physics, quantum mechanics and Einsteinian relativity, is a scientific theory in that a) it can and must be rejected/refined with the introduction of new evidence that flatly contradicts it outside the bounds of error, and b) the employment of this theory can be applied to real-world engineering processes.

Creation, albeit a theory, is not scientific, in the sense that it has not been shown to work by any real-world technological applications, and furthermore, Creation as described in the Book of Genesis (for example) cannot be revised. It can be re-interpreted in whatever manner you wish, but despite any new empirical evidence, you can't change the words in the Bible. (There's a sneaky way around this called "translation" but that's a different debate entirely.)

Regarding the second part there, if you're talking about Creation as a general principle of spontaneous divine origin regardless of whether you're dealing with Zeus or Odin or Yahweh (the Hebrew God) or Iluvatar, then obviously that doesn't apply. But currently, I see no empirical basis for such a theory.

So, on that note...

'I have tried to learn what I can about PHYSICAL evidence to support the creation theory. I will not put it down here, because it will take up to much room."

I'd like to see at least a sample of this, please.

[crickhollow]

yeah, there is a creation v. evolution thread around here somewhere, but it might have gotten closed, because when I poked my head in there, nasty things were being said. Also, if there wasn't a post limit before, then that's where it came from, because no one bothered to concisely sum up any relevant info, they just copy/pasted really long articles instead.

katya: ok, let's keep the republican jokes to a minimum, ok? I never see the conservatives around here bashing the dem. party leader. oh yeah. you don't have a leader. sorry.

Let me clarify something, folks. Some of you seem to have taken the idea that I was suggesting in my first post that religion be crammed down peoples' throats, and that budding young atheists should be forced to bow to God Almighty in Government funded, State run educational institutions.

It would serve you well to pay more attention to what you read. I am not condoning that at all. I was merely stating my wish to see an educator with enought guts to address both sides of the issue. I was lamenting the fact that teachers in Christian schools are afraid to address evolution, and teachers in public schools do nothing with creation but ridicule those who subscribe to that theory without any regard for those in their classroom, who may hold to it.

Do I make sense now?

[cassiopeia]

Oh, I love these debates. Evolution is FACT and the actual details of it is the theory. If you don't believe in theorys why don't you go outside and jump out of a building and see if gravity is only a 'theory'? Please explain why we share 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees and the fossils from around the world which show species evolving.

What was the title of this thread? Yes, of course evolution should be taught in schools, just like Newtons laws and calculus. Creationism should be kept in Bible class and not be taught in science class. I am disturbed that people believe every word of the Bible. Maybe I will believe every word of the Silmarillion. Please show me some evidence of creation and maybe I will rethink my views, unitl then I'm sticking to the scientific facts.

[IronParrot]

"i dont believe in all this monkey crap! i think its wrong to put stuff in childrens mind that maybe a christian or something! and for one thing im a cristian so i think that there were no monkeys here that just happened to turn into us! now my ? is if we were monkeys then why are there still monkeys on earth? did they fail thier monkey evolution in school? he he ! but this is no joke i think it is wrong for these stupid teachers to talk about something totally nonsense! woooo im tired!"

First of all, the statement that "if we were monkeys then why are there still monkeys on earth?" is a misinterpretation of what evolutionists claim. Nobody's saying that we were once monkeys in the sense of monkeys that we know today - they're just talking about common ancestry. Furthermore, speciation is merely the evolution of a new species, and not the elimination of an existing one to make room. Analogously, nobody's saying that English is French here, we're just saying that they both share common Latin roots.

As for the rest of your comments (other than "woooo im tired", because I agree completely), what would you say if I said something like this:

"I don't believe in all this crap about some mystical Hebrew entity creating the world in six days! I think it's wrong to put it in the minds of children that they are all inherently sinners by birth and that some completely unrelated guy died for them on a cross! I think it is wrong for teachers to poison the next generation with brainwashing nonsense!"

You'd be pretty offended at my ignorance of the issue's intricacies, wouldn't you?

Going perhaps a little off-topic, here's a question for you... mules are created by the interbreeding of horses and donkeys. Were there mules on the Ark?

(Actually, bad example... of course there aren't - mules can't interbreed and there would be no point to keep them around anyway. But still.)

Let's pick some more nits here...

"Evolution is FACT and the actual details of it is the theory."

Well... the process of evolution is factually observed. The theoretical part that everybody seems to have a hard time dealing with is the extrapolation that homo sapiens as we know it derived from some other species, and was not created directly from God's image.

"Maybe I will believe every word of the Silmarillion."

Maybe you should.

Interesting comment there... you see, the only reason why we can clearly reject Tolkien's mythos as fact and claim that it is fiction is because we know the origin. We have documented evidence that Middle-Earth originated from the mind of an author, about whose life we know plenty.

Not the case with the Bible, a heavily edited and translated work with scattered origins, all claiming divine inspiration - something we can't prove either way, because we don't have the documentation.

Of course, that's not to say the Bible shouldn't be taught in schools at all. After all, Greek mythology is taught too...

[IronParrot]

Strictly back on topic here, my primary argument in favour of evolution being taught in schools is this:

You cannot pursue a career in genetics - an increasingly budding field of modern scientific research - unless you have an educational background in that field. And let me tell you, universities aren't going to teach biology from the ground up - there is a certain high school entry requirement.

And it's not just genetics, either. There are subjects from A to Z - anthropology to zoology - that students are interested in, which they would not be able to take successfully without at least a basic appreciation of evolution and/or speciation first.

If schools shied away from all evolutionary theory entirely, they would be disadvantaging their students and restricting their opportunities.

In high school, people can choose not to take biology. I made that choice. But the school should not actively refuse to make reference to evolution. That's like saying history classes in America aren't allowed to talk about the American defeat in Vietnam. (I'm told that many of them still don't.)

[Rían]

Just a quick note on this....

Originally posted by IronParrot
In response to the "evolution is just a theory" argument:

There is a huge difference between evolution as a theory and creation as a theory.

Evolution, like Newtonian physics, quantum mechanics and Einsteinian relativity, is a scientific theory in that a) it can and must be rejected/refined with the introduction of new evidence that flatly contradicts it outside the bounds of error, and b) the employment of this theory can be applied to real-world engineering processes.

and why, may I ask, should it be rejected/refined? could it be that at least parts of the theory are WRONG? Obviously, only something that is incorrect needs to be fixed.

I'd like to see at least a sample of this, please.

I will get you some w/in the next day or two, I would ask you to please be patient, as I can only do quick posts (like many others, so please be tolerant!) right now, as I have 3 small kids whose care is a high priority to me But I will be back w/in a day or two. Thanks.

[IronParrot]

"and why, may I ask, should it be rejected/refined? could it be that at least parts of the theory are WRONG? Obviously, only something that is incorrect needs to be fixed."

I didn't say that evolution is currently problematic. I'm just saying that in the case that some part of it is indeed wrong (should there be any evidence to claim this), it can be revised.

On the other hand, nobody's going to revise the Bible anytime soon, eh?

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by IronParrot
nobody's going to revise the Bible anytime soon, eh?

Perhaps RÃ*an's point was that it doesn't need be revised?

[katya]

Crickhollow, I am really sorry. I meant no offense. I was just making an observation. entss89 said somthing about monkeys so I was just reminded of that. It's been a long day. And secondly, I am not a democrat.

[entss89]

yeh im sorry for being so critical iron parrot its just i feel so strongly on this subject but i should be open minded to other peoples opinions and beliefs! and yeh i would have felt offended if you said that so i guess i reallly was being so block headed and stubborn that i forgot about all the other peoples that have a diff. opinions. sorry everyone !

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by katya
Crickhollow, I am really sorry. I meant no offense. I was just making an observation. entss89 said somthing about monkeys so I was just reminded of that. It's been a long day. And secondly, I am not a democrat.

well, if no offense was meant, then none will be taken.

[katya]

Crickhollow: ok good. thanks for understanding. I want to go delete that now. I didn't mean in any way to diss republicans. hey my brother has big elephant ears. I am never going to this thread againg though. It has bad vibes. (not your fault!)