Tales of Nolduryon

[Valandil]

By the way Rian, I really had to fight the temptation to resist using another name I thought of:

Calafornien... "maiden of the northern lights"!

[Rían]

LOL!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yes, I realize that, but that still gives you a lot of opportunities to reveal things from his POV showing why the prince and the lady are desireable - things he sees, hears, overhears, figures out, etc.

EXACTLY!!!! That's my biggest complaint with the story. I felt mislead - I felt like it was "dishonest" in a way. If you would have started it with something like (very roughly) "Customs change over time, even in my lifetime. Some have asked me how my parents ran their court, and why they did as they did, and they want this information kept for our records of our people. I think the best way to do this is to tell about how my brother married his wife." Do you see what I mean? (again, just MHO, but I definitely felt that the story didn't live up to the opening line.)
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Well - maybe I'll just have to write another version of the story from the middle brother, Elremir. He was more of an 'insider'... didn't get the direct impact of all the notes between Tarcil and the Queen - but we would have a lot more information about what brought Tarcil and Brecarwen together.

But... *sigh* - the prospect of doing that, even while writing the first story, seemed like it would take a lot more effort. I really wanted to just dash it out, and get back to my adventure story. I've already done some romance with Firiel and with Eldacar. So - maybe after I finish "Visitors" I can work myself up to giving Elremir's side of the story.

One of my New Year's Resolutions was to write (4) stories this year. I didn't intend to count "Visitors" - but I'll probably have to. With the account I've already made of Tarcil, that leaves me two more. I have several I had wanted to do, but maybe I'll do Elremir's account. Or... maybe it'll be better left alone for awhile and I pick it back up later. I'll decide after finishing "Visitors".

Meanwhile... I picked up "Pride and Prejudice" last night (the book, not the movie) - to sort of pick up some pointers. I started this morning and I'm already about an eighth through it.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, Rian is right, you misunderstood me, Val. I certainly didn't doubt that they "saved themselves for marriage", the dull Faithful they were. If I mentioned "harem", it is because of the following similarities:

1. You speak of high moral standards of the Dunedain. Then why wouldn't young men and girls be allowed to meet normally - as much as they wish? What is the fuss if a men and a girl take a solitary walk together? Why can't they be trusted not to outstep certain moral limits? Why all those harem-like restrictions?

2.The feelings of the young ladies were disregarded. Perhaps one of them would have preferred not a Prince, but someone else? But other men wouldn't approach her: only the Prince is given the green light - like in a harem. A girl has no possibility even to go talk with the man that pleases her. She can't even go talk and flirt with the Prince himself - so strictly everything is regulated. She has to sit like a flower in a flowerbed and let herself be plucked, or, more likely (39:1),.discarded.
Actually a harem girl is happier: if she is not chosen for this night, she will be chosen for another, no big deal. Here, just because of the Dunedain high moral standards, the choice is final.

3. The Prince has full choice of girls, as a sultan would: the custom eliminates ALL competition. Really, why? You want to show that the Prince is a hardly eligible young man. He is no cripple, no ugly monster, no weakling. And his high position gives him additional advantages. So what real threat are those young men around him?
-Normally a young man tries to better himself to win the heart of his ladylove. And this is surely beneficial for the man and for the future relationship. In your fic, I have a mental image of the yawning Prince coming to survey his "harem" in house slippers. What does it really matter what they might think of him?

As you correctly pointed out, Val, the Dunedain culture reflects that of the Elves and of Numenor. Now, can you REALLY imagine Galadriel or Arwen among those girls? Or Erendis? or Telperien, or, especially, Tar-Ancalime? You must be joking, Val!

The position of women both in the Elven and in Numenorean culture was high. Numenor was RULED by several headstrong women. Of course, after the Downfall, the Numenorean culture has dwindled - but not to become its reverse, a sort of an oriental harem thing!

I think, it is quite plausible that a queen with a marriageable son would invite as many eligible young ladies to court as possible. It is plausible that they would willingly come - to get an education, to meet young men. The same way as young male nobles come to court for the same reasons. But that would be it. Then each fends for himself or herself, and if there is a competition for the most desirable girl, then the Prince should compete. If he is good enough, he will win. And he will be sure that his wife doesn't secretly love another.

Responses:
1. In that just mentioned copy of "Pride and Prejudice" - the forward notes that no single woman under 30 of that time would be seen in the company of a man without a chaperone. If this held true in modern Western society only 200 years ago, how much more in antiquity?
2. With all the comments you've made about the line of royalty being patrilineal - I think this goes right along with that. A woman's real interest in these kinds of societies is the sort of marriage she makes. I don't suppose it was ONLY the royal line that was patrilineal. I expect that held true for all the nobility.
3. You're only looking from the POV of the women at court. Think of the young men. Out of deference to their future King, they choose to let him select his bride first. It's a smart thing to do. No noble would want his King to 'have a candle burning' for the noble's wife. No noble would want to declare himself openly to a young lady - and then have her eventually become his Queen.

I think Galadriel was quite exceptional, as were most of the rest that you name. Also - the cultural climates were different. In Numenor, women could inherit the throne. In Middle Earth, even among the same people, they could not.

Just some further thoughts for you to consider.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Responses:
1. In that just mentioned copy of "Pride and Prejudice" - the forward notes that no single woman under 30 of that time would be seen in the company of a man without a chaperone. If this held true in modern Western society only 200 years ago, how much more in antiquity?

Of course you're using allegory in this comparison of Middle Earth to our world.