Lord Elronds Mistake

[olorin hamfast]

Something occured to me whilst I was watching the New Line Version of LotR about a statement Lord Elrond made about the "Hearts of men", and how he saw the hearts of men fail;
" I was there that day"
He was with Isildur in the Chasm at Orodruin after the King had fallen and Isildur had cut the ring from the the Decievers hand.
"Cast it into the fire!" yelled Elrond
"No" and Isildur took the ring for himself, causing all sorts of problems for generations to come.
Why did Elrond not finish the job then by sticking a couple of elvish arrows into the greedy bastsard's back and kick Isildurs Bane into the fire for once and for all? Did he not fail the hearts of the Last Alliance? Im sure Mr Tolkien did not intend this to happen, as it wouldve cut short his royalties, but Lord Elrond wouldve properly served the efforts of the Last Alliance and put a quick and dirty end to the whole third age. Also, would we expect Samwise to the same to Mr Frodo when his moment of truth came that day in the bowels of the mountain of fire?!?

[The last sane person]

I think this be in the wrong forum, this is the technical problems with ENTMOOT website....er, move the thread, ye mods of olde?

[Lotesse]

They will, eventually!

I'm with you here, olorin. I especially thought Elrond was negligent and even maybe a bit of a pussy for not tackling Isildur in Orodruin, in the movie. 'Course, that would have meant, no Lord of the Rings story, but - still, he could have at least TRIED to get that ring and toss it in the fire himself!

[olorin hamfast]

I put this in the wrong darn forum! DO you know how 2 move it? Im so embarrased. I guess its done! Thnx!!

[The last sane person]

I dunno, I think that would have been the wisest real life move. Hell, kin or no, I woulda shoved his corrupted ass into the flames in a trice. But then again, as with all movies, books, plays and what not, the most expediant and logical way to neutralize the problem is never taken. Then there would be only a few pages or minutes of the movie/play.

[Lotesse]

olorin-The mods'll do it, soon as they can. Don't worry, it happens ALL the time, you're DEFinitely not the first one to put a topic in the wrong forum! Every day someone does it, just about.

[The last sane person]

It already was moved, if you didnt notice, you goof! So, why would elrond (in the story, never mind real life) not want to shove ole' Izzle into mount doom?

I mean, tolkien had to have had a reason, other wise it would have been pretty whack.

[olorin hamfast]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

It already was moved, if you didnt notice, you goof! So, why would elrond (in the story, never mind real life) not want to shove ole' Izzle into mount doom?

I mean, tolkien had to have had a reason, other wise it would have been pretty whack.

It mustve been his enormous pectoral muscles.

[Earniel]

Moved.

In hindsight, it was not Elrond's smartest move but then you never have 20/20 hindsight in the moment you have to make the decision, right?

But if you consider what they knew at the time there was IMO no need to go as far as killing Isildur (who was practically everyone's hero at that time) to destroy the Ring. Killing Isildur or taking the Ring from him by force when he stood at the Chasm would irreversably have resulted in fighting within the Alliance and I gather that was not something Elrond was keen on causing. Sauron had been defeated quite spectacularly and he literally evaporated when his Ring taken from him. (Movieverse speaking of curse) Who could have known back then that Sauron would be able to rise again? Okay we know now. But at the time Sauron was considered history permanently, I take it.

Also, who could have forseen the malicious effect the Ring had on other bearers? The Ringsmiths of Eregion were dead so I don't think many were left who knew precisely what Rings of Power could do. And considering Sauron forged the One Ring alone, it is not illogical that even the wisest among Elves and Men did not know the full capacity of the One Ring.

Consider further that Isildur lost his father, his brother and saw the city he had built taken and defiled in this war. Now who would have had the heart to be a bully and take the hard-won prize, the One Ring, from him? Personally I would have let him keep it too.

Of course, movieverse-wise, seeing Isildur act all creepy and that creepy little grin when he said 'no' might have been a good indication for anyone that the One Ring was not that harmless....

[The last sane person]

well, no, even the wise 3 new that the ring was not sugar and spice, because they KNEW that the dark lord had poured his malice into it, indeed, thats what they were worried about with their own rings!

But I think you are right, it does say that Isildur claimed the ring as his recompense for loosing his father and brother...And the elvish army section of the alliance was in tatters, seeing as Enerion Gil-Galad had kicked the bucket as well...Still, I think that Elrond should have seriously tried something, not killing him per say. And at least the leves new that all that was of the dark lord must be destroyed...what a wuss.

[Gordis]

According to Olmer Elrond DID kill Isildur later, on the Gladden Fields. He couldn't do it before the whole army of Men. So he waited and followed him and ambushed him at the Gladden. There were Elves, not Orcs there!

[Lotesse]

That's a trippy theory. That makes Elrond an out-and-out murderer, then, doesn't it? (Man, I wish Olmer would hurry up and re-appear, soon!)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

That's a trippy theory. That makes Elrond an out-and-out murderer, then, doesn't it? (Man, I wish Olmer would hurry up and re-appear, soon!)

Yes it does, that's why I didn't like Olmer's idea too much. But I DO miss him as well, I hope he returns!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

well, no, even the wise 3 new that the ring was not sugar and spice, because they KNEW that the dark lord had poured his malice into it, indeed, thats what they were worried about with their own rings!

Let me rephrase then: They obviously knew the One Ring was not something to hand to the kiddies on Christmas' Eve but they wouldn't have known the full extent of the Ring's capacity. Seeing that merely separating the Ring from Sauron already caused such effect, would it really have been considered vital to destroy the Ring as well? Of course, here we yell: "Hell, YES!" But only because we know what happened afterwards.

And Isildur was no Man without power, remember his actions at the Stone of Erech. Perhaps Isildur and his line were not such a bad choice for keepers of a dangerous item as the Ring. Think of it, the Elves are waning, certainly after such a draining battle as the Last Alliance. They know they won't be around forever, I bet they don't want to babysit the One Ring for the rest of their time here either.

But Isildur has lost much due to Sauron's actions. Númenor comes to mind for one. Here is a man, a leader of a strong nation too, that will no doubt do anything to prevent Sauron from regaining the Ring, (should Sauron still be able to do anything after his defeat by the hands of Isildur.) At the time I do not think it was known that the Ring had a bit of his own agenda and keep actively corrupt a 'good' bearer.

[brownjenkins]

in my opinion (and i think this is also the case in the book) ... no one in middle earth, gandalf included, could have willingly destroyed the ring ... it's power was too great ... elrond knew this deep down, so it was simply not an option

[olorin hamfast]

I thought of that. It wouldve tried to convince him to take for his own. But being a high elf, he may have resisted as he did at the council at Imladris when Frodo produced the ring, something his uncle could not do. And The Lady remained Galadriel, went into the west finally by not taking the ring when Frodo freely offered it in Lothlorien. And Samwise, not nearly as powerful as Elrond, gave it back to Frodo after his SAmwise the magnificent shpeal at Cirith Ungol with the ring on!( Maybe it was tricking him into thinking he could handle it). This is why I suggested that Elrond kick the thing into fire after he had slain Isildur as it would fall out of his hand in his dying gasp. He would not even need to handle it and suffer by its touch. Its a moot point, but a fun discussion.

[me9996]

He should have knocked isildor down into the lava ...

But that would be meen and mess up the story

[olorin hamfast]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Moved.

In hindsight, it was not Elrond's smartest move but then you never have 20/20 hindsight in the moment you have to make the decision, right?

But if you consider what they knew at the time there was IMO no need to go as far as killing Isildur (who was practically everyone's hero at that time) to destroy the Ring. Killing Isildur or taking the Ring from him by force when he stood at the Chasm would irreversably have resulted in fighting within the Alliance and I gather that was not something Elrond was keen on causing. Sauron had been defeated quite spectacularly and he literally evaporated when his Ring taken from him. (Movieverse speaking of curse) Who could have known back then that Sauron would be able to rise again? Okay we know now. But at the time Sauron was considered history permanently, I take it.

Also, who could have forseen the malicious effect the Ring had on other bearers? The Ringsmiths of Eregion were dead so I don't think many were left who knew precisely what Rings of Power could do. And considering Sauron forged the One Ring alone, it is not illogical that even the wisest among Elves and Men did not know the full capacity of the One Ring.

Consider further that Isildur lost his father, his brother and saw the city he had built taken and defiled in this war. Now who would have had the heart to be a bully and take the hard-won prize, the One Ring, from him? Personally I would have let him keep it too.

Of course, movieverse-wise, seeing Isildur act all creepy and that creepy little grin when he said 'no' might have been a good indication for anyone that the One Ring was not that harmless....

Idunnno bout that. Elrond was pretty emphatic about Izzie huckin it in to the fire; he seemed to have prior knowlege of the Decievers creation and his intent in its construction.

[olorin hamfast]

Originally Posted by Gordis

According to Olmer Elrond DID kill Isildur later, on the Gladden Fields. He couldn't do it before the whole army of Men. So he waited and followed him and ambushed him at the Gladden. There were Elves, not Orcs there!

Com'on are you SURE about that one? It is more feasible that Elrond in his way had forseen the destruction of the ring or rather that the rings demise would not be by his hand. He also forsaw the death of the hobbit ringbearer as did Galadriel and the return of the king to the throne.,,,

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by olorin hamfast

I thought of that. It wouldve tried to convince him to take for his own. But being a high elf, he may have resisted as he did at the council at Imladris when Frodo produced the ring, something his uncle could not do. And The Lady remained Galadriel, went into the west finally by not taking the ring when Frodo freely offered it in Lothlorien. And Samwise, not nearly as powerful as Elrond, gave it back to Frodo after his SAmwise the magnificent shpeal at Cirith Ungol with the ring on!( Maybe it was tricking him into thinking he could handle it). This is why I suggested that Elrond kick the thing into fire after he had slain Isildur as it would fall out of his hand in his dying gasp. He would not even need to handle it and suffer by its touch. Its a moot point, but a fun discussion.

all good points about resisting the ring... but not quite the same as taking a direct action that might destroy the ring... remember how frodo reacted very early on when gandalf tossed the ring into his fireplace (an action frodo thought might harm the ring, but gandalf knew would not)

in a way, i think this is the real reason why gandalf wasn't so concerned when frodo and sam ended up being on their own... he knew power would not destroy the ring, and might even get in the way of destruction... he was betting on luck (or maybe fate)