Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > Middle Earth
FAQ Members List Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-01-2018, 12:49 AM   #1
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
Gandalf: The first 1000 or so years...

Gandalf came to the shores of Middle Earth at about the time of the other Istari - around the year 1000 of the Third Age, but we know that he came last of the five Istari.

From the UT account "The Istari" - it seems that he traveled about mostly in the north-western parts of Middle Earth. But even this is a pretty broad range. He states that in the south he is called "Incanus" - but UT indicates he spent very little time in the south (presumably south of Gondor's bounds in the time of LOTR - but areas Gondor may have controlled when he visited). He stated that to the East he did not go - yet the north-western parts where he traveled may have been as far away as the Sea of Rhun (also the eastern limits of Gondor's earlier expansion). By the way - there are two very different, and very interesting - theories about the name "Incanus". But that could be for another thread.

Gandalf traveled among both Elves and Men. He also seemed to pay attention to Dwarves, Halflings, Ents, Eagles - and folks like Tom Bombadil and Beorn.

After his arrival in about 1000 or a little thereafter - the first account of his activities is not until 2063 - when he goes to investigate things at Dol Guldur, Sauron retreats into the East before him, and the Watchful Peace begins.

What did he involve himself in for those first 1000 years. The UT account of the Istari also indicates that they were not so very active for their first 1000 years on Middle Earth. At least, here's what it says about Gandalf on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by UT - The Istari
The date of Gandalf's arrival is uncertain. He came from beyond the Sea, apparently about the same time as the first signs were noted of the re-arising of "the Shadow:" the reappearance and spread of evil things. But he is seldom mentioned in any annals or records during the second millenium of the Third Age. Probably he wandered long (in various guises), engaged not in deeds or events but in exploring the hearts of Elves and Men who had been and still might be expected to be opposed to Sauron...
Was that thousand years just a convenient amount of time? Or did something trigger Gandalf - and maybe the other Istari - into a less passive, more active mode?
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2018, 05:26 PM   #2
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
So... nobody has any thoughts on Gandalf's "dark years" - his first thousand years in Middle Earth? Maybe not much to say? Anything fun to speculate?

IE - did he get his Blue Hat from one of the Blue Wizards? Maybe HE was the one who...
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2018, 03:41 PM   #3
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Ok, I’ll bite.

Gandalf’s description of himself to Faramir seems to indicate that he had traveled all along the western coast of Middle-earth from Lindon to Umbar, where he was called Incánus or “North-spy”. (“Incánus” is also Latin for “grey” or “grey-haired”, btw.) He knew the way to Erebor: it seems he had traveled all over the Vales of Anduin and Rhovanion, and up the Carnen River to Dale before its fall. Perhaps he travelled as far as the Sea of Rhûn, but no farther: “to the east I go not.”

I am unclear on the exact timing of Gandalf’s appearance. Curun*r-Saruman came first. Did he come alone? Did Radagast or the Blue Wizards accompany him? Saruman considered Radagast a bumbling burden: was he further incensed through being forced to bring him along on his voyage to Middle-earth? Gandalf came last: I always thought Gandalf came alone and last: was his “kinsman” Radagast with him? And how are Radagast and Gandalf akin, other than being both Istari? (FWIW, I think Saruman meant to come alone but had Radagast as extra (unwanted) company, the Blue Wizards came separately and together, and Gandalf came last and alone. If Saruman arrived about the year Third Age 1000, perhaps Gandalf arrived around 1100? Any ideas?)

For the first thousand years, no doubt Gandalf wandered about Eriador, Gondor, up and down the Anduin, and at least as far as east the Elf-kingdom of Mirkwood. (As I said, I think he went further, to the Sea of Rhûn.) He must have passed through Khazad-dûm in the days of its Dwarven glory.

Put this into some perspective: The Istari arrived at the very height of Gondor’s power, near the end of the reigns of the Ship-Kings of Gondor, just before Atanatar II Alcarin came to the throne. In the north, Beleg and Mallor were the second and third kings of Arthedain; Amlaith, Beleg’s father, was the first king of Arthedain following the division of Arnor after the death of his father Eärendur. Was the division of Arnor a precursor to the mission of the Istari, a sign that Sauron had arisen? The Valar must have realized Sauron had taken shape again and was active once more in Middle-earth: isn’t that why the Istari were sent in the first place? Did they not explain at least this much to C*rdan, Elrond, and Galadriel, and to the kings of Arthedain and Gondor? It would seem to me gross negligence to ignore or conceal this important piece of information.

What role did Gandalf play as collapsing Arnor cum Arthedain faced Angmar and its Hillmen allies in Rhudaur? Did he not advise them? How were they overwhelmed all the same? Did they ignore him? Was he even present? Where was Saruman at this juncture?

And also for the fall of proud Eärnur in Gondor: where were the two great Istari, Saruman and Gandalf, when Eärnur told the Council of Gondor that against their advice, he was going to meet the Witch-king in single combat?

Why did neither Gandalf nor Saruman hasten to Khazad-dûm when the tales of Durin’s Bane arose in T.A. 1980-1981? Perhaps it was late in the year when Durin’s Bane awoke and just after Yule when the Dwarves fled, a couple of months or just a few weeks or even days.

Whatever they were doing, the Istari do not appear in the histories until after both branches of the House of Elendil lose their thrones, the House of Anárion by extinction, the House of Isildur by overthrow by Angmar. Until then, whatever they did, if they intervened in the affairs of Men and Elves, they did in the background, unobserved, or at least outside the annals of the Tale of Years.
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2018, 09:48 AM   #4
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
Thanks Alcuin - great contribution and interesting comments. Three things to mention:

I would not have thought before that Gandalf arrived as much as 100 years after the other Istari - though it IS possible. I guess I imagined their arrivals to be all within a few years of one another (in human terms... but 100 would be a few in Elven or Valinorean terms). So it's an interesting possibility. My prior assumption would have been within 5-10 years of one another.

I don't think the Istari were sent to combat Sauron, necessarily. It was seen that "the shadow" had arisen again, but I don't think the nature of that shadow was yet realized - either in Valinor or in Middle Earth. It wasn't until years later that the White Council learned that Sauron was indeed the personage of the shadow returned.

What you say about the name "Incanus" is correct, but we're told a little more in UT. The "north-spy" (also "alien") seems to have come from the Haradrim - but Gandalf could have been given the same name in Gondor - where the Quenya would mean "mind-ruler" or "mind-master" - we might even say "mastermind". So, Gandalf may have been given the name in Gondor as a compliment, continued south into Harad, where his Gondorean name had an altogether different meaning.

This last reminds me of a car story. Apparently, Chevy had a VERY hard time selling the Nova (a car model) in Mexico. I believe it was some time before they realized that "no va" in Spanish essentially means "doesn't go" or "doesn't run" - while to us English-speakers, "nova" represents a great astronomical event.
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
This is SAD! Orangutans Face Extinction in 20 Years... Dúnedain General Messages 5 01-14-2004 02:08 PM
Episode 0 Yodaman Writer's Workshop 0 12-24-2003 10:37 PM
Gandalf's sight Fat middle Lord of the Rings Books 8 09-21-2002 07:01 AM
Gandalf aka Mithrandir Curandir Middle Earth 22 09-11-2002 07:25 PM
Gandalf - Gandalf the White Captain Stern The Silmarillion 7 03-21-2001 08:08 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail