Palantir in T2T

[Dunadan]

(I suppose this is a potential spoiler if you've not read the book)












Some Palantir-related plot devices in TTT are:
1) we don't know how Saruman and Sauron exchange news;
2) neither of them know what happened to the Uruk-hai raiding party, other than that they had captured hobbits;
3) we don't know what the Palantir is until the end
4) Wormtongue, rather unbelievably, chucks it out the window at Gandalf
5) Aragorn reveals himself to Sauron (tho admittedly that's in ROTK), waves Anduril at him and uses it to anticipate the Corsairs' attack on Pelargir.

All this stuff is really important to make Sauron uncertain as to the whereabouts of the Ring; Aragorn might have it, Saruman might have it, even Theoden might have it. That, in turn, makes him attack too soon, and therefore Frodo's mission becomes more achievable.

So, how are they going to do this?

Since Gandalf has already seen the Palantir in Orthanc, we can't explain him not knowing about it. Frankly, it always looked a bit dodgy that Wormtongue threw it out the window. Will they go inside Orthanc and nick it? Will Aragorn toss Gimli in a window and ask him to get it? (sorry)

What do you think?

[Millane]

im sorry Dunadun but i dont actually get what you mean... i am very slow could you sorta explain it again
ta

[Dunadan]

I think the point is that Gandalf knowing that Saruman used the Palantir might mess things up in T2T. Namely:

Why go to Isengard after Helm's Deep?
The reasons given in the book are to give Saruman the opportunity to recant and to cast him from the Order. But if Gandalf knows of the Palantir, he'd know that it would probably be a waste of time, and certainly not worth the risk. What if Sauron knew that hobbits were there too, and sent the Nazgul to kidnap them? Further, why delay the Rohirrim by a further two days from riding to Minas Tirith?

As a result of the visit, Pippin looks in the stone and Aragorn takes possession of it, changing the course of the war.

It would make more sense to head straight for Minas Tirith after Helm's Deep, and trust Treebeard to look after Saruman. But, of course, that would mean the Palantir remaining in Orthanc.

So, my guess would be that they have three options:
1) Pretend that Gandalf didn't know what the Palantir was back in the first film
2) Have Treebeard kick S out of Orthanc and present the stone to Aragorn
3) Forget about it and just have lots of people hacking each others' limbs off for no apparent reason.

Does that make sense?

[Millane]

it does and i like Option 3

option 1 would not happen... That leaves option 2 but i dont think thatll happen either... i think Gandalf will have to be there and break Sarumans staff but it will be a hard obsticle to get over. i am anxious to see what happens

[bropous]

I don't think that Gandalf knowing about the Palantir needs throw off the rest of the story, but then again, I still do not see the need to turn Frodo into a mewling, semi-comatose wimp at the Fords of Bruinen.

If you look at it, Saruman's behavior was pretty darn egregious before Gandalf headed to Isengard to invite him back into the fold. Saruman had slaughtered tons of Huorns up near Quickbeam's home turf, had sent Grima to corrupt the Ronhanian throne, sent an army of men and Uruk-Hai to assault Rohan at Helm's Deep, dispatched a battallion of Uruks to hunt down the hobbits and snatch the One Ring, and yet Gandalf STILL wanted him to switch sides and rejoin the side of the West.

These actions, when considered in context, clearly point to the fact that, even if Saruman had not been corrupted by Sauron hisself, Saruman had at least decided to go free agent and was working at direct cross-purposes to the fates of the dwellers of Middle-Earth.

A sincere desire by Olorin to have a deep heart-to-heart with Curunir and offer him a path to redemption and a chance to reclaim his immortal birthright is certainly not pre-empted by Olorin knowing that Curunir had been in commune with Gorthaur the Cruel through the palantir. Olorin would probably still believe there was a chance that Curunir would shed his wrong-headed path and join the Captains of the West even though he had placed a couple of conference calls to Barad-Dur, so I don't see the trek to Isengard to be now pointless.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by bropous
even though he had placed a couple of conference calls to Barad-Dur, so I don't see the trek to Isengard to be now pointless.

I see what you're saying, but what about leaving hobbits lying about in the wreckage of Isengard? A bit careless...

[bropous]

I'm not sure I follow you, Dunadan. Are you saying that leaving hobbits nosing about the flotsam and jetsam at Isengard was somehow a failing by Saruman? If so, I don't quite get it. I think we can all admit that Saruman had lost his freedom of movement and action when the Ents beseiged Orthanc.

If somehow this was to have been a failure of Gandalf, again I don't get it as he knew the hobbits were in good hands with Treebeard and the rest.

I guess a little clarification would help.

[Dunadan]

In the book, to make Frodo's success believable, we have to accept that Sauron is drawn into making his move too soon. The Palantir is crucial to this, as is the fact that Sauron still believes it to be in Saruman's possession when Pippin looks into it, and for some time after.

G realises that they had a close shave when Pippin looks in the Palantir; had Sauron questioned him there and then, he'd have found out that no-one had the ring. All Sauron needed to do was withdraw his forces and concentrate on searching for Frodo and the ring.

So, capture a hobbit = win the war as far as Sauron is concerned. In the book Gandalf (alone) knows this.

If Saruman can communicate directly with Sauron, he can tell him there are a couple of hobbits lurking about Isengard. A quick dispatch of the Nine and the hobbits are scooped up while Treebeard is off doing a spot of landscaping. Game over.

So, my point is that, IF he knew about the Palantir, Gandalf would keep hobbits clear of Isengard so that their whereabouts were secret from Sauron. In the book, he didn't know until it was thrown out the window by Wormtongue, so it makes sense.

The general question is, how is Jackson going to do that whole uncertainty / political dimension (which is essential to make the story both exciting and sensible), given that G has already seen the Palantir in Orthanc? Or will he just say "bugger it" and have more mass carnage.

[markedel]

I think the focus is on the whole mass slaughter thing.

[Entlover]

Is it absolutely clear that Gandalf knew what the palantir was in Orthanc? He threw a cloth over it and sensed the presence of Sauron, as with the ring; but do we know that he recognized it for a communication device?

[Dunadan]

Good point: looked it up on the DVD and indeed he doesn't say that he knows what it is, just reckons it's dodgy to mess with. That would blow my theory all to hell.

I still have a general worry that they're going to drop the political bit from T2T in favour of hack and slash. However, it would be great to see Aragorn using the Palantir to face down the Eye...

[Sween]

there is a very good reason that gandalf goes to isengard and thats to take care of business. He cannot just leave saurman with the power he has. his main task was regardless of the plantair to try and turn saurman back or if that failed take away his powers.


the hobbits were taken to the steps of isengard for a very good reason in the book. To confuse sauron and saurman. in the book it is never made very clear who is in possion of the ring to the enemy. they know someone called baggins has it and the ringwaiths stad someone bearing the ring at Anom hem but after that they dont know the fate of the hobbits.

Gandalf and the others are quite happy to let sauron think that pipin is the one that bears the ring that is why he is rushed to Minus Tirith because thats what sauron expects and thats why he marches on the black gates.

Saron isnt even sure in the end if a hobbit bares the ring he suspects that they want to use it against him so one of gandalf, aragorn, denethor or even theoden could be bearing the ring.

[azalea]

I'm bringing this to the top because a newbie had a palantir ques. related to TTT. After reading this I wanted to comment that Gandalf does know what it was for in the movie. I see what you were saying. In the movie, Saruman is shown as truly being on Sauron's side, so that if he were still able to communicate with him, he would have no reason not to say "there are hobbits here, and possibly the ring, so send over a few Nazgul" or whatever. I don't think at that point in the movie though, that he necessarliy knows the hobbits are there. RotK will be a different story though. I think that he won't know that the hobbits were there until the confrontation, and then there won't be time before he and the palantir get chucked out the window (or however they plan to do that). So Sauron won't know "the halfling's" whereabouts until Pippin looks into it.

[Cirdan]

Saruman will be killed during the continuation of the sacking of Isengard in the RotK. They won''t have to worry what he's up to.


DId you know the Palantir were much larger than depicted in the movie? In The Unfinished Tales they are described as varying in size, one foot in diameter and up.

[azalea]

I had always pictured them as being larger. Also had pictured them a different "color."

[Cirdan]

Maybe the film ones were the lesser known "Pocket Palantir."

Imagine lugging that 1 foot diameter stone all the way to Minas Tirith? That's a back breaker, for sure.

[mithrand1r]

Maybe they should goto Gollum's old village and ask for some pocket palantir. After all, according to Gollum, there were many rings of power there.

Seriously though, it would be interesting to see how this will worked out in ROTK.

Sincerely,
Anthony

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Good point: looked it up on the DVD and indeed he doesn't say that he knows what it is, just reckons it's dodgy to mess with. That would blow my theory all to hell.

I still have a general worry that they're going to drop the political bit from T2T in favour of hack and slash. However, it would be great to see Aragorn using the Palantir to face down the Eye...

He refers to it as a palantir, showing that he knows what it is called; this would naturally lead to the conclusion (IMO, at least) that he knew what it did, and that's even if, as a Wizard, he did not know of these rather prominent magical items.

Also, as further proof:

They are not all accounted for, the lost Seeing-Stones. We do not know who else may be watching.

My emphasis added, of course.

[Dunadan]

Yes, having watched FOTR again a couple of times, you're right: Gandalf does know what the Palantir is, and would be naive not to guess that Sauron also had one.

Having also seen TTT now, I think this might explain the daft ring-giving scene at Osgiliath. Sauron would probably believe that the Ring was on its way to Minas Tirith. It's a straight swap for Pippin looking into the Orthance stone.

If so, this still leaves a problem: how can Gandalf know that Sauron believes this? Maybe we'll get the Aragorn/Sauron face-off via the Palantir, which would be grand, after which he is able to see the build-up of the Mordor armies.

Whatever, it's essential that Gandalf/Aragorn know that the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron. Only then can they know how urgent it is to send aid to Gondor.

cheers

d.

[Cirdan]

Faramir willl probably bring the news of Frodo as in the book. They can lump it all together, leaving hours for battle scenes....