Dragons vs Balrogs

Now I must tell you my main reasons for my belief in dragon's magical eyesight. Now if you say that only Glaurung had the power to cast spells and such, then this proof is useless. But if you think all dragons can do what Glaurung did, then I can't see how you will refute it.

Glaurung constrained Nienor to gaze into his eyes. He must have had a reason for that, why else would he want to do it? Just to terrify her? I think that he did that so that he could cast the spell upon her. Turin was frozen by his gaze, and not until the Dragon had broken their eyesight connection did he snap out of it. Glaurung wouldn't maintain the steady gaze unless he had a good reason for it, as there were probably many other more useful things he could do at the moment then stare at Turin.

Now for the capstone of my theory. If the eyesight wasn't important, then Smaug surely would have cast a spell on Bilbo. Bilbo was invisible, and if it weren't for this, Smaug would have used his spells to defeat him. But as it was, he couldn't.

Even if the magic isn't in the eyes, obviously it is channeled through them.

Relating material in The Hobbit to The Silmarillion is very difficult, but I think in this case Smaug's "power" or "ray vision" or whatever you want to call it is probably indicative of a standard dragon trait Tolkien had devised.

I had not checked The Hobbit before my last post. I was only consulting The Silmarillion.

I will concede that probably WAS some sort of active vision power the dragons possessed.

Call it magical eyesight if that makes it work for you.

Good. Magical eyesight perhaps was a bad choice of words, but it was generally what I meant. Their magic isn't only in their eyes, but the vision of the dragons certainly has something to do with it, and I'm glad that we agree on that point.

In our discussion, your opinions have made me adjust a few of mine, and have certainly given me a great deal of knowledge I hadn't considered before about the Silmarillion. But now, unless you want to look back at my previous posts and find other things wrong with them, I believe that our rather drawn out argument is over.

I don't go looking for things to "correct". If something leaps out at me I may say something. Otherwise, I just leave it as is.

So, I think my part in this thread is done.

That makes two of us. I'm gone as well.

A lot of you'r are just speculation as well.

You said that Huan was able to defeat Sauron yet he had no magic weapon but you oversaw the fact that Huan himself was a Maia ( a magical creature ) so he was in effect a magical weapon.

How do you know Morgoths crown wasn't magical? Exactly you don't know for sure.

Can you provide a citation in which JRRT says that Huan is a Maia?

Captain, Huan was not a Maia. He was the Hound of the Valar (Orome I think to be exact), but what was not a Maia in any way. I think the passage says pretty well Huan didn't use any magic. He was just a very couragous, (physically) powerfull, mighty Hound ordained to battle against the greatest Wolf of Middle-earth. He was too much for Sauron, and all his forms he took and changed were for naught.

The Silmarillion says that Huan was just a hound given to Celebrimbor by Orome (I wouldn't go so far as to call him "the Hound of the Valar").

In Morgoth's Ring there is an essay where Tolkien briefly speculates that Huan might have been a Maia.

But Huan was as intelligent as all the Maia's. He could speak! Ok he was only allowed to speak 3 times in his life but he was still able to speak and it wasn't mindless sentences like scooby doo but well thought out conversations.

I didn't know about that essay in Morgoth's Ring (never read it), but it's important to remember most of the Kelvar express superior intelligence to those of our reality. Huan did not show anymore intelligence than did the Eagles, the Fox in The Shire that observes the sleeping hobbits, the animals in the Old Forest that Tom Bombadill told the Fellowship about, Wargs and Werewolves, bears, ravens, thrushes, crows and other birds and beasts.

While we're on the topic of whether or not dragons can wield magic... seems that Balrogs too can use magic. Gandalf tried to lock the door in Moria using a spell to keep the Orcs from pursuing the Company. The Balrog's counter-magic shattered the door. Fortunately it also brought down the roof, blocking the passage and burying the Chamber of Mazar-bul, or the company would have been caught.

I'm inclined to say that Balrogs are indeed more powerful (and evidently sometimes don't know their own strength). But the question remains: why did Morgoth bother breeding dragons when this would dilute his powers even more?

Something to do with numbers perhaps? Maybe there were only a limited number of Maiar who followed the Valar down to Arda, and thus even fewer who were corrrupted into Balrogs? So Morgoth decided to breed a "main battle tank" that he could produce in great numbers.

Maybe. Does Tolkien elaborate on the powers of Ancalagon the Black? Sil only mentions him appearing at the very end of the War of Wrath, and LOTR briefly mentions him as the most powerful ever, and possibly able to destroy the One Ring were he still around.

As for the size of Khazad-dum, I recall that it was some time before the Dwarves finally abandoned their greatest city. It must have been spooky living with a Balrog, kind of like when the Grendel stole warriors and ate them in "Beowulf". But Moria must have been huge for the Dwarves to be able to stay there awhile after the Balrog showed up. If it had turned up in Erebor, the Dwarves would flee immediately.

I only know of two references to Ancalagon, and neither speaks of his powers, except for Gandalf's comment concerning melting Rings of Power.

I think he's reffering to the Silmarillion's refference to him as the greatest Dragon that ever was--which can be interpreted as 'most powerful', i.e., greater powers, but I don't know.

I meant how powerful/strong he was. He was pretty darn BIG, that's for sure. When Earendil killed him, Ancalagon crashed on the twin peaks of Thangorodrim. The peaks were destroyed by the impact. Considering Thangorodrim was still intact during the Valar-Maiar's holy onslaught, Ancalagon must have been massive. Unless he exploded on impact.

Hmmm... seems my judgment is now leaning in favour of dragons. On the other hand, Ancalagon may have been exceptional, one of very few dragons that could match a Balrog.

Aigh I think you are right easterlinge.

Michael, the person I was talking about was Feanor, when I mentioned the fight between one person and several Balrogs. I couldn't remember his name earlier, but well, there it is.

I think that's the last string of the previous conversation which was left at a loose end.

Hmmm.... all I've got to go on is "Silmarillion". It gave a very brief account of the War of Wrath, and I got the impression it was over in a flash, with the the Valar blitzing all the way to Angband, perhaps in one week or even less. Not very satisfying. Does Tolkien elaborate on the War of Wrath?

A footnote in the appendices of LotR hints that the Balrog in Moria was awakened by the "malice of Sauron."

About Smaug. Gandalf postulates that Sauron would've used the dragon to devastate the North (Rivendel etc). in the War of the Ring, had it survived.

It seems to me that Sauron had the power and the authority to command both of these "evils of the ancient world" (to use Legolas's phrase).

Michael Martinez writes:

"Balrogs are Maiar and Dragons are creatures bred in Arda. The scale of difference between the two is immense, and it's heavily in favor of the Balrogs."

That would be true except for one thing. Morgoth's power has gone into dragons. They aren't just creatues of Arda, they have been lent the immense power of the mightiest of all the Ainur.

About Glaurung Turin says: "His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be." (UT 135). Not just a creature of flesh and blood, then, but a creature of great physical strength in which the evil of Morgoth is housed as a living flame.

In the War of Wrath, its the onset of dragons that almost turns the tide against the host of the Valar after the Balrogs have already been virtually destroyed.

I'm far from convinced that "the scale of difference between the two...[is] heavily in favor of the Balrogs."