Dragons vs Balrogs

Glaurung was young when Fingon drove him back. No Balrog is ever "driven back" in The Silmarillion. And the tales of Balrogs being slain at Gondolin are non-canonical, as Christopher Tolkien went all the way back to The Book of Lost Tales to write that chapter. He had no way of knowing (as we have no way of knowing) what his father would have done with the story of Gondolin after Tuor reached the seventh gate.

It is very probable, however, that NO Balrogs would have died at Gondolin, had J.R.R. Tolkien finished rewriting the story. He had already decided, by the time he started work on "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin", that there had probably only been 7 Balrogs at most.

In "The Fall of Gondolin" there were at least 1,000 Balrogs. They were fierce and terrible warriors, but they were not the fallen angelic Maiar of the later Silmarillion.

I haven't even read the Book of Lost Tales, and whether or not any would have died there is purely speculation. When Glaurung was driven back, it took many spearmen, and it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been young and cocky. He had weaker scales, and that was what caused it. Later on, it showed that he had magical eyesight, and was responisible for many evil deeds before he was killed by Turin. He was one of the leading creatures in Morgoth's final attack in the breaking of the siege of Angband. It took many Balrogs to kill one elf lord, and certain dragons could melt rings of power.

I know that Balrogs are very strong, and can strike terrible fear into people's hearts, and destroy almost any mortal. But dragons are capable of leveling whole cities, and the first fight against Glaurung was called the one of the great battles of the siege of Angband.

Well... still, Glaurung did end up killed by Turin, and other dragons have been slain by Men wielding fairly conventional weapons. And Azaghal's Dwarves did stand up to a troop of dragons. And Balrogs still required an Elf of exceptional prowess or a Maiar, wielding marvellous enchanted weapons...

seems Balrogs are more powerful, no contest. OK, how about freewill? Is a Balrog or a Dragon more autonomous? Some of you say Balrogs were less aoutonomous, others refute this by saying they were Maiar. Some say Dragons, being creations of Morgoth are chained to his will, others say they are freer agents than the Balrogs. I think this is the main issue?

Then again, maybe dragons are not all alike... maybe the most powerful dragons like Ancalagon the Black could beat a Balrog easily, while the lesser dragons were much weaker than your average Balrog. And these lesser dragons were the ones killed by Men of later Ages?

Is Azaghal from the Book of Lost Tales? Cause I've never heard of him either.

It's true that dragons can be killed by conventional weapons, if they strike the right spot, and that is a great weakness to dragons. I don't think Balrogs have any particular weak spot.

I think that the difference between dragon and Balrog power is also depending on what the situation is. A dragon could lay waist to a city, and destroy everything around it. I don't think a single Balrog could do that. They aren't built for massive destruction like the dragons, although they certainly are capable of doing massive damage.

RE: Is Azaghal from the Book of Lost Tales? Cause I've never heard of him either
Azaghal can be found in THE SILMARILLION. The Index will give you proper page numbers.

Thank-you. I guess its been too long since I read the book.

...When Glaurung was driven back, it took many spearmen, and it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been young and cocky. He had weaker scales, and that was what caused it...

It might help to actually refer to the book.

Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons, but the Elves fled before him to Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion in dismay; and he defiled the fields of Ard-galen. Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years....

...Later on, it showed that he had magical eyesight, and was responisible for many evil deeds before he was killed by Turin...

"Magical eyesight". Sorry, that's not in the text, either.

...He was one of the leading creatures in Morgoth's final attack in the breaking of the siege of Angband. It took many Balrogs to kill one elf lord, and certain dragons could melt rings of power....

Yes, Glaurung led the attack, but he wasn't the only creature in the attack. And there is no passage in The Silmarillion which states or implies it took many Balrogs to kill one Elf lord. On the other hand, Legolas does mention in The Lord of the Rings that the Balrogs were the most deadly of all Elf-banes.

The Balrog of Moria destroyed the Dwarven civilization. Even Smaug didn't accomplish as much. And Glaurung needed armies to accomplish the destruction of the Noldorin forces which opposed him.

All right, I was wrong about the spearmen. But it really doesn't sabatoge my theory at all that it was archers instead. It says in your quote that he was not yet come to his full armory. I said that in my last post. He had not yet the strong scales. He wasn't to his full strength, and it was with youth and cockiness that he issued forth from Angband against Morgoth's instructions. Why else would he go?

Now, when I was talking about magical eyesight, I was thinking of the time when Turin's sister was hypnotized by his gaze. He does in that way have magical eyesight, either that or a the vision that certain snakes have on their victims. When a small animal looks into the eyes of certain types of snakes, they are hypnotized. Perhaps that is what it was.

I will have to find the section about the elf lord. As I said earlier, its been too long since I read the book.

Now let me point out that when the Balrog captured Moria, he started out inside it, and took it with an attack that came from complete surprise. If he had started out outside its walls, he would have most assuredly been turned aside. It's true that this victory did basically destroy the Dwarf civilization, but that's because of the importance of the target.

When Smaug took the Lonely Mountain, he did it from outside, and the warriors had plenty of time to fight back. Even so, they were all destroyed, with barely any survivors escaping the carnage. There were massive halls, caverns and riches inside the Lonely Mountain. Although most of Smaug's treasure was stolen later, the loss of the Lonely Mountain was a crippling blow to the Dwarves. It was one of their best and strongest places.

How else could the small company of dwarves hold off the mighty armies of the elven kingdom and Dale all by themselves?

And now about Glaurung. Glaurung was not a flying dragon, and how could he destroy all of the Noldorin forces by himself? There were hundreds of thousands of trained and experienced warriors there, come from Valinor. Even a fully armored and powerful dragon would think twice before taking on all that by himself.

But on the other hand, when he swept out of Angband the first time, he hadn't seen the enemy hordes yet. That and delusions of grandeur are the only reasons I can see for that move.

...Why else would he go?

Being outwitted and herded like a wild animal probably had something to do with young Glaurung's retreat.

Now, when I was talking about magical eyesight, I was thinking of the time when Turin's sister was hypnotized by his gaze. He does in that way have magical eyesight, either that or a the vision that certain snakes have on their victims. When a small animal looks into the eyes of certain types of snakes, they are hypnotized. Perhaps that is what it was.

"Magical eyesight" implies that he's got something like x-ray vision. But Nienor wasn't hypnotized by Glaurung's gaze. Turin seems to have been. At least, the story says "straightaway he fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon".

When Nienor looked into Glaurung's eyes, the story goes: "Her will strove with him for a while, but he put forth his power, and having learned who she was he constrained her to gaze into his eyes, and he laid a spell of utter darkness and forgetfulness upon her, so that she could remember nothing that had ever befallen her, nor her own name, nor the name of any other thing....[/quote]

Is that hypnotism? I don't think so. Glaurung was exercising some of Tolkien's "magic", working will against will.

Now let me point out that when the Balrog captured Moria, he started out inside it, and took it with an attack that came from complete surprise. If he had started out outside its walls, he would have most assuredly been turned aside. It's true that this victory did basically destroy the Dwarf civilization, but that's because of the importance of the target.

Who was the more surprised, the Balrog or the Dwarves? However, the Balrog didn't conquer Moria in a day. Appendix A to LOTR says: "Durin was slain by it, and the year after Nain I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed or fled far away."

After a year the element of surprise isn't going to help anyone very much. It took the Balrog at least a year to destroy the Dwarven civilization.

When Smaug took the Lonely Mountain, he did it from outside, and the warriors had plenty of time to fight back. Even so, they were all destroyed, with barely any survivors escaping the carnage. There were massive halls, caverns and riches inside the Lonely Mountain. Although most of Smaug's treasure was stolen later, the loss of the Lonely Mountain was a crippling blow to the Dwarves. It was one of their best and strongest places.

Smaug attacked a much smaller community of Dwarves than the Balrog took on, and a lot of them still got away. Erebor was hardly a match for Moria in either size or population. But the Dwarves still had other places to retreat to. That Thror and his son didn't go to the Iron Hills or the Grey Mountains doesn't mean the Dwarves were completely destitute.

How else could the small company of dwarves hold off the mighty armies of the elven kingdom and Dale all by themselves?

No small company of Dwarves did any such thing. If you're referring to the standoff in The Hobbit, Bard and the Elvenking were merely reluctant to storm Erebor. Why risk getting men killed when they could just starve the Dwarves out? Or so they thought. They didn't know that Dain was on the way with help and supplies until Bilbo told them. So Erebor's defensability was hardly proven by Thorin and Company.

And now about Glaurung. Glaurung was not a flying dragon, and how could he destroy all of the Noldorin forces by himself? There were hundreds of thousands of trained and experienced warriors there, come from Valinor. Even a fully armored and powerful dragon would think twice before taking on all that by himself.

Glaurung did no such thing. He led armies into battle, and it was the overwhelming strength of his armies which turned the tide against the Noldor.

I think I know what you're thinking of, with respect to the Elf Lord. Fingon was slain by Gothmog in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad:

But now in the western battle Fingon and Turgon were assailed by a tide of foes thrice greater than all the force that was left to them. Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elvenhosts, surrounding King Fingon, and thrusting Turgon and Hurin aside towards the Fen of Serech. Then he turned upon Fingon. That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon and it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.

That is hardly "many Balrogs", and Fingon was in any case the High King of the Noldor. His father Fingolfin had fought Morgoth and wounded him eight times before he died. Was Morgoth less powerful than a dragon? I don't think so.

I wasn't talking about Fingon. I was thinking of someone I remember being surrounded by Balrogs and killed.

Whose side are you on anyway? Although you're arguing with everything I say, several of the posts you put above were pretty much saying the Balrogs were less strong. Thanks for keeping our facts clear about what happened in Moria, but you just shot yourself in the foot.

Now the Lonely Mountain was hardly a minor dwelling place. When it held off the armies of the elves and men, they settled in for a seige partially because they knew that it would take a lot of men to defeat their opponents, in this strong place. It's also because of the fact that they could do it much more easily that way. And at the time when there were hundreds of dwarves mining in the Lonely Mountain, at the time Smaug attacked, the place wasn't in disrepair, like it surely must have been by the time the dwarves took it. Sure, they built it up quite a bit, but they couldn't possibly have brought it back to the full state of defense that it probably was at by the time Smaug arrived. I know that the dragon hit them by surprise, and this had something to do with its victory, but surely all of those dwarves in the fully built up place of defense could do better against their enemy than the Thorin and company could have against the elven army. But they still kept the elves and men at bay, and the elves and men didn't attack the place even when they had word of Dain's approach, which shows that it wouldn't be an easy victory.

In your quote about the magical eyesight, you can't be disagreeing with me too much if you acknowledge the fact that this happened to Turin. And when it says 'he constrained her to look into his eyes,' that sounds like hypnotism to me, or at least something very similar to it. And if it isn't, there still is a lot of other proof that he has magical eyesight. It says that he 'put forth his power.' Not just any creature can wipe someone's memory out. You can take the term 'magical eyesight' in more ways than simply X-ray vision. That is not what I was thinking of when I said he did have it.

I know Melkor was stronger than a dragon. One single man can kill a dragon, depending on what the circumstances are. This was proved quite effectively by Bard.

I can't understand what I said about Glaurung that you disagree with. I haven't said anything against the fact that he led the armies that attacked the hosts of the Noldor. I agree with you that being outwitted and herded were some of the factors that led to his retreat, along with the pain of elven arrows.

Whose side are you on anyway?

I'm not on anyone's side. I saw some comments that needed correction and I offered what corrections I could. It just so happened that one of my own comments required correction.

On the other hand, I'm not saying that Balrogs were less strong than dragons. Dragons and Balrogs are two different kinds of things. Balrogs are Maiar and Dragons are creatures bred in Arda. The scale of difference between the two is immense, and it's heavily in favor of the Balrogs.

And, yes, the Lonely Mountain was a minor realm compared to Khazad-dum. Khazad-dum extended for miles underneath SEVERAL large mountains.

Furthermore, you're making wild assumptions about what the Dwarves were capable of doing when Smaug attacked. You point out he took them by surprise. That's right. He took them by surprise. They weren't exactly looking for a war. And it didn't take Smaug a year to root them out of their kingdom. Erebor was simply not Khazad-dum, not in size, not in population.

In your quote about the magical eyesight, you can't be disagreeing with me too much if you acknowledge the fact that this happened to Turin....

I didn't quote anything about magical eyesight. For lack of a better term, I would say you are overinterpreting. It's not like rays of magic burst from Glaurung's eyes. He exerted his will against Turin and Nienor, and he cast spells upon them. The book doesn't say he cast spells by looking at them.

With one arrow, Smaug was finished. It only takes one blow, in the right place, and Thorin said that immense wealth was collected in the Lonely Mountain. By dwarvish standards, that's quite a bit. I'm not saying it's as great as Moria. Far from it. Moria was the greatest mithril production place of all Middle Earth, and it took a great amount of effort to conquor. I still say that the Lonely Mountain had to be a pretty defensible spot, and that helps to show that the dragon was proved to be very strong in being able to take it so easily. Although that is already proven, by the fact that he wiped out all Dale, as well as laying waste to the entire country side.

Other then this, as you didn't disagree with any of the other opinions I gave above, it appears that the magical eyesight is the one remaining dispute that is left.

I don't see Glaurung as being an enchanter, one that can cast spells on people without even seeing them. If dragons could do that, why didn't Smaug do it on Bilbo? When they and the person and the dragon lock gazes, the dragon can exert their will upon their minds. As he is a very great and powerful beast, it makes sense that he could do it. I don't think that his being the first dragon makes the power exclusively his.

I never said that rays of magic left his eyes.

I think the reasons that 1 Balrog finnished the Dwarf Civilisation of Moria was because none of the Dwarfs there had weapons that were magical enough to harm him, if they had magic weapons at all that is. Wasn't Moria cleansed by the Balrog before the Noldorian Elves even arrived on Middle Earth? and none in Middle Earth before they came had any magical weapons?
Dragons can indeed be harmed by non-magical weapons but their attacks are themselves magical ( they were created by Morgoth and he failed to make them non magic immune like the maiar and the valar)

I think Dragons were more anti-personel than Balrogs simply because they were much bigger, which means than in a large scale battle a Dragon would be able to kill more than a Balrog but when you put a Dragon against a Balrog I don't see the Dragon winning.

Remember some of the characters in the Silmarilion were increadibly mighty ( Fingolfin stood toe to toe with Morgoth and he was no where near as powerful as Feanor who was 2nd in might only to Morgoth at full power ) even some of the humans came near in might to the mightiest of the Elves e.g Hurin who was the mightiest of all men and Turin his son who killed the Father of all Dragons who was probably equal in might to Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs.


Why did you die Tolkien?!?!

You're obviously not reading the book, and I'm not saying that to be condescending or provocative. Smaug killed the Dwarven warriors as they emerged from the gates of Erebor. And because Smaug had set fire to the mountain and flamed the river, turning it to steam, he create a huge veil of smoke and fog in which he was able to destroy the army of Dale.

Most of the survivors fled the region. Smaug didn't kill them all by any means (Bard, for example, was a descendant of King Girion of Dale).

And regardless of whether you see Glaurung as an enchanter, Tolkien said he was casting spells. I'm not inclined to pursue that any further because what the author says of his fictional characters is true and any objections to what the author says are, in my opinion, pointless.

I think the reasons that 1 Balrog finnished the Dwarf Civilisation of Moria was because none of the Dwarfs there had weapons that were magical enough to harm him, if they had magic weapons at all that is. Wasn't Moria cleansed by the Balrog before the Noldorian Elves even arrived on Middle Earth? and none in Middle Earth before they came had any magical weapons?

Whether Balrogs could only be slain by magical weapons is pure speculation, but the Dwarves were capable of making plenty of magical weapons.

And the Balrog of Moria didn't reside there until after the end of the First Age. The Noldor had returned to Middle-earth more than 600 years before that time, and the Dwarves had been living in Khazad-dum for thousands of years (or the equivalent -- I'd rather not get into the calendar systems again).

The Balrog of Moria destroyed the Dwarven civilization more than 5,000 years later.

Dragons can indeed be harmed by non-magical weapons but their attacks are themselves magical ( they were created by Morgoth and he failed to make them non magic immune like the maiar and the valar)

I don't understand where you are getting these ideas from. There is nothing in the books about anyone having immunity to non-magical weapons. Gandalf, when he returns as the White Rider, cannot be harmed by weapons. Aragorn, at the very least, was in possession of a "magic" sword, and Gandalf indicated even Aragorn's weapon couldn't harm him.

But that immunity appears to have been granted by Iluvatar as a special assistance.

I never objected to anything that Tolkien said. I agree, that would indeed be pointless.

And I never said that the entire population of Dale were destroyed either. I know that many escaped. What you said about the conquest of the Lonely Mountain doesn't disprove anything I said earlier.

I've read The Hobbit several times, as well, although not recently.

The question of whether Glaurung used his eyes to cast the spells or not is obviously very possible to toss back and forth with many different arguments, for and against. But it obviously has something to do with his vision, as otherwise Smaug would have used it on Bilbo.

I don't think it has anything to do with his vision. I get the impression from the text that his eyes had some sort of mesmerizing effect for anyone who looked into them.

For what it's worth, I generally try to refer to the books before commenting on Tolkien. That's no guarantee I'll find all relevant passages or have the time to cite them. But I don't trust my memory (despite what people say about its being encyclopedic).

Sorry I couldn't be more wrong about the times: Dwarfs came much later than when the Noldor arrived once again on Middle Earth.

I haven't seen in any JRR Tolkien book some where where it says Dwarfs could make magical weapons. Perhaps there have been instances where a Dwarf has used a magic weapon but it was probably a gift of the Elves.

I and other people I have talked to off the Internet get the impression that any Vala or Maia can only be harmed by magic or magic weapons.

Sauron when he battled Gil Galad and Isildur ( rusty on the names ) they used magic weapons.

In the Silmarilion when Morgoth heard that the Noldor were marching against him he wasn't sure whether to be worried or not because "he had no proof of the swords of the Noldor" ( but it turned out he had every reason to be worrried )

No where in the works of Tolkien is there an instance where a Maia or a Vala is harmed by an ordinary weapon, but if you find one by all means tell me.

I worked out that the Dragons attacks were magical because Morgoth created them as very powerful creatures imbued with much of his power and when they were his last ace up his sleeve in the War of Wrath they had to have magical attacks to harm the Vala and the Maia.

About Glaurung. You are right about his mesmorising gaze. That's what it says in The Silmarilion! That doesn't mean all Dragons had this gift, indeed it doesn't look like any of them did. It might be unique to Glaurung. He was the first and most powerful Dragon after all.

I haven't seen in any JRR Tolkien book some where where it says Dwarfs could make magical weapons. Perhaps there have been instances where a Dwarf has used a magic weapon but it was probably a gift of the Elves.

Nope. The Dwarves made magical weapons and devices, too. The Dragon-helm of Dor-lomin, the sword Narsil, the gates of Moria (both east and west), the secret door of Erebor, etc.

I and other people I have talked to off the Internet get the impression that any Vala or Maia can only be harmed by magic or magic weapons.

I assure you there is no reason to get such an impression as far as anything written by J.R.R. Tolkien goes.

Sauron when he battled Gil Galad and Isildur ( rusty on the names ) they used magic weapons.

Sauron attacked Gil-galad, and there is no indication that Gil-galad actually got a chance to strike a blow with his spear (Aiglos). Elendil came to Gil-galad's aid, using the sword Narsil (made by Telchar of Nogrod in the First Age).

However, Sauron was also beaten by Huan. No magical weapons there. And Sauron was slain in the destruction of Numenor. No magical weapons there. Nor were there any magical weapons involved when Gollum fell into the fire and brought Barad-dur crashing down, killing Sauron for the third and last time.

In the Silmarilion when Morgoth heard that the Noldor were marching against him he wasn't sure whether to be worried or not because "he had no proof of the swords of the Noldor" ( but it turned out he had every reason to be worrried )

He won the war, they lost. However, "he had no proof of the swords of the Noldor" is a poetic turn of phrase. Although it MAY imply the Noldorin weapons were magical, the passage speaks more of the warriors who carried those swords.

No where in the works of Tolkien is there an instance where a Maia or a Vala is harmed by an ordinary weapon, but if you find one by all means tell me.

Well, there is the black dagger that Beren uses to cut the Silmaril from the iron crown. Nothing in the text says it was magical, and yet it was able to cut the iron, sending a fragment to knick Morgoth on the cheek. Was the iron crown magical? The book doesn't say so.

I worked out that the Dragons attacks were magical because Morgoth created them as very powerful creatures imbued with much of his power and when they were his last ace up his sleeve in the War of Wrath they had to have magical attacks to harm the Vala and the Maia.

Well, the flaw in that logic is that you have assumed only magic can hurt the Valar and Maiar. Tolkien in fact wrote that they could be hurt in their incarnate forms, even killed, just like Men and Elves. He didn't make any distinctions about magical weapons.

About Glaurung. You are right about his mesmorising gaze. That's what it says in The Silmarilion! That doesn't mean all Dragons had this gift, indeed it doesn't look like any of them did. It might be unique to Glaurung. He was the first and most powerful Dragon after all.

He was the first, but Ancalagon the Black seems to have been the most powerful. We don't really know if Smaug had a similar ability, however, because Bilbo refused to look directly in his eyes.

There IS a hint, however, that Smaug had some sort of active magical vision. It may be that this is where people are getting the idea that dragons (or Glaurung) had such vision.