Favorite Vala?

I was absoluly fascinated by the Valar. They are all incredibly cool. But my favorites are Aule and Yavanna.

I think Irmo (Lorien) and Este are interesting, and Varda is very cool. There are times in the later stories when I wonder if they were involved in things.

Oh sure, respond to Arbi's Vala post, but not mine!

Actually I like Yavanna and Nienna.

He's the only Vala that didn't abandon the Elves and the Humans.

Aule is cool. He probably is the hardest-working of the Valar. And none of the others can claim to have had a hand in the creation of a new race of sentient beings, the Dwarves.

But Ulmo is my favourite.

Now, who's your favourite Maiar? Olorin, "Radagast", Melian, Osse , Uinen (The Lady of the Sea)... I'm afraid that's all I know.

I'm for Melian.

My favorite Maiar are Melian and Olorin.
My favorite Valar would be Mandos and Nienna.

Vala: Ulmo, the Lord of Waters.
Maia: Olorin, wisest of the Maiar.

The Herald of Manwe ( jeez I can't remember the name! the Maia who lead the hosts of the Vala in the War of Wrath )

One of you mentioned Radagast. I have often wondered whether the Astari were Maiar? There isn't any concrete evidence to support that they were Maia's. Gandalf and Saruman smoked a pipe. I don't know if they're immortal either maybe just long lived - Frodo thought that Gandalf looked older on his 2nd visit to the shire. What do you guys think?

That would be Eonwe, the mightiest fighter in all Arda.

The Tolkien Letters, Unfinished Tales and The Peoples of Middle-earth will all tell you the Istari were Maiar.

None of the Valar ever forsook all of the Elves and Men. The Exiled Noldor left on their own will and they were the ones who forsook the others. The Valar did not take part in the Theme of Eru which delt with the Children of Iluvatar, so they were careful not to intervene too much in the affairs of them in Middle-earth. Also assaults upon Morgoth would also cause catastrophy, and they didn't want to harm the Free Peoples. So the Children forsook the Valar rather. Tolkien said Ulmo was acting under the approval of Manwe. The Valar also could answer prayers if they would, but because of the severe crimes of the Noldor, they would only answer the prayers of them during their exile that pleaded for forgiveness and proclaimed repentance. Namo continued to house the spirits of the Elves in the Halls of Mandos. Some were able to return according to the laws that were made which I won't go into. Namo was moved to pity by Luthien and she was able to return to Beleriand as a Woman, and she lived with Beren in peace, and their line continued and if it were not for that Earendil would never have been able to sail over to Aman and plea on behalf of Elves and Men. Did the Ainur and Calaquendi not march from Aman and besiege Thangorodrim? Did they not find the terrified Mogoth deep in Angband, did they not remove his feet and cast him out of the Doors of Night, to remain there until the Last Battle? They did.

And in the Second and Third Ages they sent the Istari and Glorfindel to Middle-earth to help in the cause against Sauron. (In the revised version, Pallando and Alatar were actually Romenstamo and Morinehtar, and they came in the Second Age and were successful, save in finding Sauron's hiding place after his first death).

I have made a list of the known Maiar:

Maiar
....Aiwendil (Radagast, Istar of Yavanna)
....Alatar or Morinehtar (Istar of Orome - Blue Wizard)
....Arien (perhaps of Vana)
....Balrogs (of which there were seven, Durin's Bane and Gothmog are named only)
....Curumo (Saruman, Istar of Aule)
....Durin's Bane (Balrog of Melkor)
....Eonwe (of Manwe)
....Gothmog (Balrog of Melkor)
....Ilmare (of Varda)
....Istari ('Wizards', of which five came to Middle-earth)
....Melian (of Este and Vana)
....Olorin (Gandalf, Istar of Varda and Manwe)
....Osse (of Ulmo and than Melkor before returning to Ulmo)
....Pallando or Romenstamo (Istar of Orome- Blue Wizard)
....Salmar (of Ulmo)
....Sauron (of Aule and than Melkor)
....Tilion (of Orome)
....Uinen (of Ulmo)
....Ungoliant (of Melkor)


Salmar made the Ulumuri (which is probobly spelled wrong), the horns of Ulmo made from shells of the sea. They make the music of the Ocean that you hear.

". (In the revised version, Pallando and Alatar were actually Romenstamo and Morinehtar, and they came in the Second Age and were successful, save in finding Sauron's hiding place after his first death)."




Alatar and Pallando were successful? In what? What did they accomplish? I'm really curious.

And do all the Maiar have to be attached to a Vala? I thought they were a bit independent. Melian eloped with Thingol, so thought she was unattached to anyone.

Who are Este and Vana?

Seems like Aule wasn't particularly succesful dealing with living beings. First he loses Sauron to Morgoth, then his emissary to the mortal lands Curumo-Saruman becomes corrupted. And when Yavanna tells him of the Ents protecting the trees, how does he respond? "Nevertheless they will have need of wood."

Ai !! He probably enjoys watching "Top Gear" and stuff about cars.

On the other hand he did make those Dwarves. THe Khazad are probably his best work. (Though he did have a lot of help from Eru in the "life" department).

Here's the revised notes on the Blue Wizards: "No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. [note from Inoldonil: Gandalf says in the Hobbit that Radagast is his cousin] ... (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.

[Note from Christopher Tolkien: The reference of the last sentence is to Saruman's violent retort to Gandalf at the door of Orthanc, in which he spoke of 'the rods of the Five Wizards' (The Two Towers p. 188.) Another note is even rougher and more difficult:]

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age [note 26]. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador [note 27]. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romenstamo [note 28]. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding place (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

Note 26: [These notes go with the text Glorfindel II, when my father had determined that Glorfindel came to Middle-earth in the Second Age, probably about the year 1600 (p. 382).]

Note 27: [With this reference to Glorfindel's part in the war in Eriador cf. the note cited on pp. 378-9.]

Note 28: [Elsewhere on this page this name is written Rome(n)star.]"

Yes, each Maia was attached as it were to a Vala. That is, each Vala had a People to go with them, that _seem to me_ to have similar natures and powers. Olorin (Gandalf) served Varda and Manwe, and he has a certain connection with Eagles (who are strongly associated with Manwe, and also Yavanna, which may explain the relationship between Radagast and Gandalf), and certainly a great power with fire and light, and lightning-like magic, which strongly reminds one of Varda. The People of the Valar can still be independent after a fashion, they are not bound to one place or one Vala. We know this because Olorin who was of the People of Varda and Manwe also was a councilor to Irmo (Lorien, and that had much to do with his name, but that's another story), and was the most successful "student" of Nienna. (You must notice his thoughts of Pity and Mercy.)

Melian was said in the Silmarillion to serve Este and Vana. Este is the Healer. She actually (although many people don't seem to notice) seems to have slept almost eternally in a lake, of which I have forgotten the name. She is the spouse of Irmo, all who are weary go to her for rest and peace of mind. Some (Feanor's first wife namely) have gone to the gardens of Lorien to rest, and they often go to sleep and do not wake. But her people tend the bodies that die there, and they never wither or decay.

Vana is the Everyoung, the younger sister of Yavanna and spouse of Orome. She is Tolkien's final version of the Goddess of Spring and Rebirth, hence she is Everyoung. Wherever she walks flowers bloom in her foot steps and all is made new again. Arien may possibly have served her.

It's interesting to note that in yet another later version of the one used in published works (in this case The Silmarillion), after Aule puts the Khazad asleep, Eru names them as the Third Children of Iluvatar, though the Dwarves themselves did not know that. I believe you'll find that in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, Of Dwarves and Men.

Did the Blue Wizards ever go back to Valinor? Gandalf did well, but the Ithryn Luin were working on the problem a lot longer. It must have been hectic in the War of Elves and Sauron, keeping up the spirits of the eastern rebels, drawing away resources from Sauron. And doing it again in the Last Alliance, and the War of the Ring. And Gandalf getting all the credit!!

Is it possible to sail to Aman from the East?

Morinehtar "Darkness-slayer" sounds like he has some special powers against dark creatures. Wish there was some more elaboration on the Blues.

These questions about the blue wizards are especially of interest to me. I'm writing a fan fic in which the wizards would prominently figure.

It it (THE HOBBITS) I postulate that Alatar finally goes bad and Pallando goes mad. This eventually results in the death of Alatar and the healing of Pallando.

Can I do this without contradicting what is known of the Blue Wizards?

It isn't known if they ever went back to Aman, but it would seem if they did it was after Gandalf did. Certainly they were supposed to, so it's curious. It's possible they died in the struggles against the Easterlings some how.

Gilthalion, it depends. Some things Tolkien revised later, such as the days of the Two Trees and how they work and that contradicted what he wrote before in his Silmarillion, and other texts besides. So experts tend to use the old version for consistency. But this is not the case with Alatar and Pallando. Actually Tolkien finally decided that wasn't their names, they were Morinehtar and Romenstamo (as you know). If you think about it, what Tolkien said about them is simply what they did during the days of Sauron, before and during the War of the Ring. They don't seem to have gone to Mithlond too soon, so you can make them corrupt (or mad) accurately, as long as you place them some time in the Fourth Age.

Actually it would be a good idea, as it would explain why they never left. Other people might argue you can use whichever you want as you please, Alatar & Pallando or Morinehtar & Romenstamo. But I think you should use the latter and make it after the WR. If you DID use Pallando and Alatar, than that means you're using the old version anyway.

But I should tell you in truth you wouldn't use either set of names, but names given to them by whomever. Noone called Gandalf--Olorin, or Saruman--Curumo, and so on. Alatar & Pallando or Morinehtar & Romenstamo would have different names among the peoples of Middle-eatrh.

Thanks for the abundant info drop!

If you'd care to take a look the work is at pub22.ezboard.com/bgreatadventures

Just look in THE HOBBITS forum for the drafted chapters.

Again thanks.

Your advice is very helpful! The time frame is exactly right.

I think it is possible for the actual names of the wizards to be told, if one of the wizards revealed it, as Gandalf did...

...but it might be fun to make something up.

Your quite welcome, I most certainly shall have a look.

Well, maybe the Blues didn't go back with Gandalf.... because they haven't arrived yet!! They were stationed far in the East, remember? It takes ages to get back on foot, and the roads were still not completely peaceful, since I remember in the Appendix that Eomer and Aragorn would often ride to battle out east after the fall of Mordor.

So that was why I asked if it was possible to sail to Valinor from the Far East, sailing eastwards rather than going to the Havens and sailing West... after all the world was made round after the Fall of Numenor?

Yes, but Aman is not within the Circles of the World, it is quite beyond the physical bounds of the 'Universe', and could only be reached by sailing on the Elven ships on the Lost Road, a destination reached by sailing west from Mithlond (Grey Havens), instead of bending with the Ocean you would keep going straight. So going East from the East of Rhun (the East of East) would probably just make you miss it entirely and end up West of West.

On the other hand what is the Rhun? It reffered to all lands east of Erebor, but including the Sea of Rhun. But if Tolkien had geographic prehistory in mind (and he seems to be a master of geography, or perhaps that comes along with being a linguist) traveling far East enough you would eventually come to the modern day Americas, being than closer to west of Mithlond than east (since there was no water between Russia and Alaska). Yet the result would undoubtably remain the same, for sailing away from the eastcoast would indeed mean sailing East, not West.