Aragorn's Intentions at the Outset

[Rosie Gamgee]

I don't know if we've touched on this before, or even if it's worth discussion, but I noticed something the other day I never really thought about before:

When Aragorn sets out with the Nine Walkers from Rivendell, it is with the intention of going to Minas Tirith with Boromir. It was always their plan to part at Amon Hen for the White City. And so his distress is even greater at the Breaking of the Fellowship, because he must forsake his original plan to follow after and rescue the hobbits.

Thoughts??

[Gordis]

I think your observations about Aragorn are quite correct.


I believe that Gandalf's and Elrond's plan was to send four Hobbits to Mordor, hoping that Gollum would show up and lead them, and the five Big People to Minas Tirith. This plan was kept top-secret: not to give the Hobbits unnecessary nightmares all the way from Rivendell.

[Noble Elf Lord]

How I envy Gordis's wit and wisdom... (no sarcasm here, I'm serious I greatly respect you.)

If I could have chosen one member of the Fellowship into Mordor with Frodo, and Gandalf was still fighting the balrog, I woulda chosen Legolas. Not Sam, not Aragorn, but the Elf. Somehow I feel his nature was similar enough with the hobbits' not to give in to the Ring.

If I'm rambling about stuff that belongs to another thread, then delete this post, o mighty admins/mods (I still don't know their respective jobs ).

But I think that Ara's "distress" was caused by the fact that the two hobbits went alone. (...Was that a paradox...?) Without, say, Gandalf/Legolas/the other hobbits... Surely it was more important to destroy the Ring than to Aragorn to gain kingship? I mean, if they had had to choose between those two options. And he cared about the hobbits... Sorry, random rambling.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

How I envy Gordis's wit and wisdom... (no sarcasm here, I'm serious I greatly respect you.)

Why, thank you! You are too kind, really.

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

If I could have chosen one member of the Fellowship into Mordor with Frodo, and Gandalf was still fighting the balrog, I woulda chosen Legolas. Not Sam, not Aragorn, but the Elf. Somehow I feel his nature was similar enough with the hobbits' not to give in to the Ring.

I am not sure the young son of Thranduil would be immune to the Ring. The Mirkwood kingdom needed the Ring's Power maybe no less than Gondor. Legolas would have been sorely tempted to take it and could easily have overpowered even four small hobbits.
Moreover, Gimli wouldn't allow Legolas to go East unsupervised: Dwarves were wary of Elves's wiles.

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

But I think that Ara's "distress" was caused by the fact that the two hobbits went alone. (...Was that a paradox...?) Without, say, Gandalf/Legolas/the other hobbits... Surely it was more important to destroy the Ring than to Aragorn to gain kingship? I mean, if they had had to choose between those two options. And he cared about the hobbits... Sorry, random rambling.

From Parth Galen Aragorn would have gone after Sam and Frodo but for the necessity to save Merry and Pippin.
I have a nagging suspicion that Aragorn was left in the dark by Gandalf about his plans for the quest. I think Aragorn believed that Gandaf was preparing to go with the hobbits to Mordor, and thus felt obliged to replace him. Yet, Gandalf wasn't planning to go to Mordor: his presence there would be as noticeable for the Nazgul and Sauron as that of Glorfindel he so strongly objected to. And alone with only the hobbits, Gandalf could fall to temptation to use the Ring.

[GrayMouser]

I'm not sure Gandalf or anyone at the council had specific plans as to who would do what. They just knew that the Ring had to be taken to Mordor.

Their "plan" would probably best be described as

a) Get Frodo and the Ring as close to Mordor as possible.

b) Something happens

c) VICTORY

[Alcuin]

My memory is not always clear on exactly what was said – that’s why I normally quote passages – but I believe Aragorn did not know what Gandalf had planned, although he knew or suspected that Gandalf planned to go into Mordor with Frodo in any event. I don’t think there was any clear plan for Merry or Pippin – or even for Sam, whose passage to the east of Anduin with Frodo pleased and surprised Aragorn.

Remember, only upon Frodo was under any bond: he was to find Orodruin and dispose of the Ring. The rest of the Fellowship were to travel along as far as they could until other tasks took them aside; and their only requirement was that they might not handle the Ring except in direst emergency, as in fact came to pass with Sam.

Aragorn’s grim task began at Rivendell: Elrond’s permission to wed Arwen depended upon his recognition as High King of both Arnor and Gondor, a position previously held only by Elendil and Isildur, which only Elendil held without contention: Meneldil may well have coveted independence from his uncle Isildur from the very beginning. Before the Fellowship left, Aragorn sat apart from the others, and only Elrond understood what the Quest meant to him. (That’s a paraphrase of a quote I didn’t look up.) Moreover, Elrond was Aragorn’s foster-father: Aragorn was psychologically and emotionally driven to fulfill the Quest, besides his duty as a Númenórean sovereign, of which he was the last – another burden upon him.

Gandalf would probably not have stood out like a sore thumb passing into Mordor. Galadriel said that he was surrounded by a grey mist that prevented her seeing him or his movements. Since Gandalf was able to penetrate Dol Guldur, Sauron was unable to detect him, too. What something like the Watchers at the Gate of the Tower of Cirith Ungol would have done is questionable: I think Gandalf would have passed the Watchers, but like Sam, sounded the alarm. Shagrat said that the orcs saw Gollum passing into and out of Torech Ungol, and I think they were also aware of Frodo and Sam once they reached the top of the stairs on the west side. Whether they’d have also been aware of Gandalf I don’t know: he could not be scried upon using the Mirror of Galadriel or the palantÃ*ri, but he was not invisible. (Frodo’s vision of Gandalf in the Mirror of Galadriel seems to me a grace to strengthen his courage.)

But without Gandalf, Aragorn was torn: hence his intense gratitude to Celeborn for the boats. And he admitted to Celeborn and Galadriel that he did not clearly know Gandalf’s intentions beyond Lórien: it may well have been that Gandalf planned simply to get to Lórien and then, in consultation with Galadriel, Celeborn, and Aragorn, plan out their next moves. The whole burden fell on Aragorn, and Celeborn commented on the physical and mental strain he saw.

So you’re right, Rosie. Aragorn was uncertain and second-guessed himself from Lórien to Parth Galen. Boromir, sensing this, sharpened and multiplied his challenges to Aragorn’s leadership, with the result that he attacked Frodo to try to seize the Ring and was finally killed. (Boromir did acknowledge Aragorn’s sovereignty at the end: twice. The first time was when he obeyed Aragorn and protected Merry and Pippin at the cost of his own life. The second was his final confession and open acknowledgement of Aragorn’s sovereignty just before his death.) When Aragorn was at last given a clear choice, he chose aright, and trusted Providence to watch over Frodo and Sam.

…Just passing through… can’t stay… orcs with whips right behind… no fresh water in Nurn…

[Rosie Gamgee]

I guess it kind of makes me wonder what kind of entrance (to Minas Tirith) Aragorn had in mind. What did he think was going to transpire when he met Denethor? What kind of reaction did he expect when he came, not just as a Ranger, but as one laying claim to the throne of Gondor??? What kind of entrance do we think he'd get, knowing Denethor's dispostion at that time?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Rosie Gamgee

I guess it kind of makes me wonder what kind of entrance (to Minas Tirith) Aragorn had in mind. What did he think was going to transpire when he met Denethor? What kind of reaction did he expect when he came, not just as a Ranger, but as one laying claim to the throne of Gondor??? What kind of entrance do we think he'd get, knowing Denethor's dispostion at that time?

He probably expected to be booted by Denethor from the Citadel all the way to the First Level... His only hope was for a miracle that would dispose of Denethor somehow...

Alcuin, if Gandalf went to Mordor, there would have been no one to bar the way to the Witch-King. Minas Tirith would have fallen...

[Beor]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

I'm not sure Gandalf or anyone at the council had specific plans as to who would do what. They just knew that the Ring had to be taken to Mordor.

Their "plan" would probably best be described as

a) Get Frodo and the Ring as close to Mordor as possible.

b) Something happens

c) VICTORY

Simplicity! The sign of a great plan! I like it.

I think Aragorn kept second-guessing himself because Gandalf was the Leader, and he just had to follow, and suddenly, (through no fault of his own) he was thrust violently into a leadership position. That can be rough, let me tell you. Leadership aint easy, especially when the decisions you make could get someone killed. Fair to say, though, that I have never been the future King of Gondor, nor have I ever had a Hobbit with THE Ring in my charge, but leadership is leadership, I suppose...

[Rosie Gamgee]

Beor--haven't talked to you in years! (literally) How are ya?

I can't think why everyone keeps saying Aragorn was second-guessing himself. This is something that got brought up a lot in PJ's films, but not something I ever noticed in the books. Quite the contrary. At the outset, when Boromir and other express doubt of the decendant of the errant Isildur more or less leading the Fellowship (Gandalf, you remember, was one of the last to agree to go with the Nine Walkers--he could hardly be said to be the leader of the group when in fact he was not sure he would go with them at the conception of the idea), Aragorn says quite confidently, "I am Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself." Constantly he brings forth proofs of his right to his claims and the title he plans to secure over Gondor and Arnor--waving his Shards around and such.

I think that when certain things go wrong--Gandalf dying, Boromir dying, Merry and Pippin being captured--he laments the situation and naturally second-guesses his decisions (because, as the leader, he is responsible in a way when things go wrong). But I don't think he ever second-guesses himself, who he is, or where his destiny lies.

[Beor]

Hey Rosie! How've you been?

That is what I meant, I totally agree with you, I dont think he ever second-guesses himself either, but definitely his decisions. I dont have the book in front of me, but I am sure that somewhere in there it points out that Aragorn is sort of flying blind or whatever. The movies make everyone look like a bunch of clowns, they ruined Aragorn, they ruined Theoden, they ruined Elrond, they ruined alot.

Anyway, good to see ya!

[Rosie Gamgee]

You're right, Beor. Stupid PJ.

I'd have to reread the books again, I think, to have a really solid theory here (I should reread them anyway--it's been a year or two), but I think that given Aragorn's assertions at the outset of the Fellowship, he would have approached Denethor and Minas Tirith as a whole in a very confident light. He had been to the White City before, no? But then only as a nameless ranger from the north. He seemed to be biding his time. Obviously to be the King of Gondor and Arnor was his goal, eventually, for Elrond would not give him Arwen if he was anything less. I think by this point he was more or less ready to make his claim; I think he would have made it upon entering the City, or at least in the ensuing plans for the defense of Gondor against the tide from Mordor. I imagine he would have tried to gain Boromir's support in his claim to leadership and kingship. (How difficult might this have proven, if Boromir had not perished on Amon Hen? Denethor was rather confident that his eldest son would assume something more than just a Stewardship role over the kingdom--I think Denethor saw the Stewards becoming the sovereign rulers of Gondor in a generation or two more.)
Perhaps Aragorn's entrance as the 'turner of the tide' on the Pellenor Fields was really the only thing that would have convinced Gondor so swiftly of his right to the throne, and any other way would have failed, or at least met with serious opposition from Denethor. So the breaking of the Fellowship--the death of Boromir, the fact that Aragorn had to follow Merry and Pipping instead of going directly to Minas Tirith--seemed to be fated in this manner as well, for if it had not happened, Aragorn might never have been able to take the throne.

.... It's a theory anyway.

[Valandil]

Rosie - this is a very interesting thread. I hadn't posted yet, but I've been following since you started it.

Yes - I think Aragorn intended to go straight on to Minas Tirith. That's what he would have done if Gandalf had not been lost, if Boromir had not died, and if the Fellowship had otherwise worked out how they would part there at Parth Galen (still maybe the most logical place to part).

I don't know if he had in mind exactly what he would do. He was probably waiting to see what things would be like in Gondor and Minas Tirith, and go with the circumstances. But I think he had his purpose in mind - that when all was done, he very much intended to be King of Gondor. I think he would have claimed that right. He might have been willing to wait to do so, if he determined that patience would best serve their war with Sauron and his own aspiration to be King (and thereby wed the Elf Girl).

But yes - he did not join the Fellowship to go with Frodo to Mordor. He joined the Fellowship to go with Boromir to Minas Tirith.

Interesting...

[Valandil]

Additional thought:

Perhaps this realization comes a little hard for us, because our first time reading through this, when we are at 'The Council of Elrond' - we have no idea what Gondor is, or what Minas Tirith is, or who Boromir is, or just exactly what Aragorn (what's this about a 'king'?), and if so - king of what? There's just so much we don't know. We certainly don't know about Arwen and Aragorn, and what has passed regarding her between her father and Aragorn. We are entirely absorbed (hobbit-like) into Frodo's quest to destroy the Ring. And so - we readily assume that anyone else joining Frodo in this Fellowship, must in actuality be signing on for that same quest (regardless of this little Elf-Dwarf banter between Elrond and Gimli).

So - our first time thought, we must think quite naturally that Aragorn is going along with the set purpose of continuing to help Frodo - as he has already.

But as we learn more - we see that things were not as they seemed to us at first - when we did not know.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Rosie Gamgee

You're right, Beor. Stupid PJ.

Denethor was rather confident that his eldest son would assume something more than just a Stewardship role over the kingdom--I think Denethor saw the Stewards becoming the sovereign rulers of Gondor in a generation or two more.)

Hmmmm... where does this come from?

Seems to clash with Faramir telling the story of Boromir asking his father how long it takes for a steward to become a king:

"Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Rosie Gamgee

I think that given Aragorn's assertions at the outset of the Fellowship, he would have approached Denethor and Minas Tirith as a whole in a very confident light. He had been to the White City before, no? But then only as a nameless ranger from the north.

He had distinguished himself as something more than an anonymous ranger, though - he won an important victory over the Corsairs of Umbar, but he would not go back to Gondor to receive the honor he was due for that victory, but told the steward (Denethor's father) that he was needed for other tasks and wouldn't come back to Gondor for a while, if at all. Only Denethor was not sorry to hear this - his father had always esteemed this stranger higher than his son, and so had all of Minas Tirith.

Aragorn knew that Denethor had been seeing him as a rival for a long time already - when he would openly declare himself as such, things would come to a climax.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Hmmmm... where does this come from?

Seems to clash with Faramir telling the story of Boromir asking his father how long it takes for a steward to become a king:

"Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."

MMmmmm... I've actually had this idea for a while of Denethor hoping to be made king.. I'm not exactly sure where I got it from just now. Let me look and see if I can't find where I got the idea. I could be wrong.

[Olmer]

Sure Aragorn knew that Denethor is aware of the fact that he might be the last steward of Gondor
I think on a top of his popularity, when he was expected by men to return to Minas-Tirith, where great honour awaited him, note " great honour", but not the throne, Thorongil in some way had revealed his ancestry to Ecthelion, but Ecthelion in a subtle way let him know that he needs to have more substantial proves, than just a hearsay and some dubious shards of the so called legendary sword, to claim the throne of Gondor . Maybe this is the reason that Aragorn decided to return back North, promising upon his departure "I come again to Gondor"
Without a doubt, Denethor has been told by his father who Aragorn really is, and what his intentions are. So, Denethor knew, that the heir of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity� will return some day to claim the kingship. It was just the matter of time.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Okay, so where I got the idea from (after going back and reading the relevent parts) was in RtoK-----and now I don't have the book in front of me and so can't remember page no. or chapter; I'm pretty sure it was in the Pyre of Denethor or just before-----when Denethor complains to Gandalf of this Ranger from the north who comes with intentions to "usurp me". I guess my whole theory was based on the notion that 'usurp' means to unseat, or to take the place of. Now, if a king came back for the throne, he would be doing no such thing: the king does not take the steward's place; he takes the throne. And so it seemed logical that Denethor more or less thought of himself as the ruler of Gondor.

.... sketchy, I admit. Don't know what I was thinking.