Saruman: The not-so wise?

Tinman · 05-29-2009, 11:42 AM

I have a few unanswered question about saruman's big picture. I'm mostly confused as to why he held the white council back for so long from attacking the necromancer.

It appears for quite some time, he'd been searching for the one ring, learning everything about ring lore he could, and even designing his own. Its hard to say when saruman fell to corruption...

We do know that he had wanted the one ring for himself, and that he was preventing the white council from looking too deeply into the activity taking place in mirkwood. My question is, why? He probably had an idea as to what was going on there... and unless we're watching the jackson films, he wasnt really in league witj the dark lord sauron. So what benefit could he have possibly hoped to gain from not taking out sauron before he was fully restored to power? if anything, he knew sauron would be the only other person (besides gollum, who im not certain he knew of yet), to be actively searching for the ring... which all the other wise believed to be lost forever.

So why hold back the siege of the necromancer? What could he possibly been hoping to achieve by allowing another power to come back, who wanted the same thing he sought?

***Earniel*** · 05-29-2009, 01:48 PM

To me it always seemed obvious that if the survival and re-emergence of Sauron was known, that of the Ring would come into view as well. At the time the Council did not know with surety that the Necromancer in Mirkwood was indeed Sauron. It was in the interest of Saruman to keep the possible rise of Sauron a secret, so he could keep the one Ring out of the picture as well. If Sauron's rise was immediately evident, the White Council would have immediately thought of the one Ring too. I'm sure Saruman would have wanted that to stay hushed up so nobody would interfere in his search.

Attalus · 06-02-2009, 05:23 PM

I also suspect that Sauron was already influencing Saruman through the Palantir, which had, of course, had been at Orthanc continously since that fortress had been built.

Tinman · 06-03-2009, 12:13 PM

It just seems paradoxial...

He keeps sauron a secret to hide the ring, but wants to bring sauron to light to reveal the ring...

I feel like tolkien had two idea's and switched them on us half way through.

Attalus · 06-07-2009, 02:37 PM

I don't think that at all. Saruman was playing Sauron for all he was worth until he could get his claws on the One. Then, the tables would have been turned.

brownjenkins · 06-11-2009, 04:42 PM

Saruman was playing a risky game.

He thought that he was the only one that knew where the ring was lost (he found out via the Minas Tirith archives), and had sent people there to search for it, but had only found a few related items.

He hoped that Sauron's presence would bring the ring to light in the area in search of it's master, but that he would intercept it first.

Later, when he learns that Sauron's servants are searching the same area as he is, so must know of the ring's fate, he okays the attack.

The Timeline:

2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron. who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir. He finds Thráin and receives the key of Erebor. Thráin dies in Dol Guldur.

2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.

2939 Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council.

2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of the Five Armies in Dale. Death of Thorin II. Bard of Esgaroth slays Smaug. Dáin of the Iron Hills becomes King under the Mountain (Dáin II).

2942 Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor.

Tinman · 06-12-2009, 10:52 AM

Does Saruman everfind out that Frodo Baggins has the ring? i know he figures out the halflings probably have it, as thats the whole point in Two towers in the orcs not killing merry and pippin out right... but how much does gandalf tell him in the end? Does he make saruman aware of the fact that "hey, bilbo found this cool ring... whats your oppinion" or, does gandalf subconciously never trust him?

Attalus · 06-16-2009, 06:55 PM

I know that he knew that the Ring was abroad and borne by a Hobbit. I doubt Frodo's name ever crossed his darkest dreams.

brownjenkins · 06-18-2009, 04:29 PM

I suspect he knew it was a Hobbit and picked up the name Baggins from his spies. And, of course, he learned after the ring was destroyed.

Ingwe · 09-09-2009, 06:07 PM

I don't know if it's worth mentioning or not, but Saruman was a servant of Aule as Sauron was. They likely had similar interests, skills, and so on. They were both deceivers as well. Now Aule the Smith probably didn't teach deceit unless it was to be used against Morgoth. They were crafty folks. Saruman attempted his own ring, as a contingency plan obviously. He was always aware his plan might fail. He didn't go about everything, ignorant of the possible consequences. As long as he had lived, he'd have known this. Obviously he was mad with power near the end and not as secretive about it as he once was. Saruman's plan was so good that it took a heck of a force to punch holes through it. Gandalf the Grey was powerful in and of himself, even before his conversion to Gandalf the White through the loss of his former life force. Even he couldn't beat through Saruman's plans alone. Whereas Saruman appreciated things like crafting and using arcane artifacts to use as weapons, Gandalf was focused on peace and eliminating the enemy but wasn't heavy on military intelligence and weapons knowledge. He was an excellent mage as any wizard was, but that's really about it. It took Rohan, the Fellowship, and of course the Ents to even begin to poke holes in Saruman's plans. It took nearly the utter destruction and burning of Rohan. It would take years and years to rebuild Rohan's former glory. Saruman's hordes were quite powerful for as [comparatively] few they were {comparatively, as 'compared' to Sauron's forces}.

Saruman was quite wise, but filled with greed he fell to numbers, and the one unwise thing he did was to imprison Gandalf, as this set everyone to quick alert once Gandalf escaped. Gandalf was held atop the tower Orthanc, in an open space - that was a pretty bad idea. Why not hold him inside a 20 foot thick wall with a horde of Uruk-hai guarding him at all times? With him imprisoned, his staff taken, he wouldn't present as much of a threat to Saruman.

Saruman did act unwise, in exposing himself. But it was either that or risking the ring's interception by someone else. It was like trying to kick a field goal. You don't know if you're going to make it at all until the ball is kicked. And this part after all seems to have been the riskiest part of his plan. Any bold plan becomes boldest in its final phases. The biggest mess-ups are going to be made then. Sauron himself also knew what Saruman was planning at this point. Sauron knew how Saruman thought. They likely did know each other very early on. Sauron's control over Saruman may have begun when Saruman went into the east, may have begun through the palantir, or may have never happened at all. Saruman seems to have been acting at all times on his own, against Sauron's will as much as against the will of the West. He was the enemy of all by that point. It is amazing that he wasn't completely overwhelmed a lot earlier, showing how solid his plan was and how wise he was. It'd have been very hard indeed, for anyone else to have executed a plan that offered themselves that amount of protection.

And it took the Ents - The Ents - to undermine Saruman. No other assailant would have been enough. Rivendell or Lothlorien? They'd be pigs to the slaughter! Mirkwood or the Grey Havens? They wouldn't stand much of a chance either. Gondor or Rohan? Well, they're more "brute force" than the Elves and may have punched through the walls of Isengard, but wouldn't have gotten far. Gandalf's plan of sending Hobbits to undermine the enemy didn't just work against Sauron. It worked against Saruman too! If I was to fear anyone in Lord of the Rings the most, it would probably be Samwise Gamgee and Pippin!

Attalus · 09-24-2009, 11:54 AM

I suspect that Galadriel and Elrond would prove doughtier opponents to Saruman than you think, but they were far away and had other interests.

05-29-2009, 11:42 AM	#1
Tinman Enting Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 68	Saruman: The not-so wise? I have a few unanswered question about saruman's big picture. I'm mostly confused as to why he held the white council back for so long from attacking the necromancer. It appears for quite some time, he'd been searching for the one ring, learning everything about ring lore he could, and even designing his own. Its hard to say when saruman fell to corruption... We do know that he had wanted the one ring for himself, and that he was preventing the white council from looking too deeply into the activity taking place in mirkwood. My question is, why? He probably had an idea as to what was going on there... and unless we're watching the jackson films, he wasnt really in league witj the dark lord sauron. So what benefit could he have possibly hoped to gain from not taking out sauron before he was fully restored to power? if anything, he knew sauron would be the only other person (besides gollum, who im not certain he knew of yet), to be actively searching for the ring... which all the other wise believed to be lost forever. So why hold back the siege of the necromancer? What could he possibly been hoping to achieve by allowing another power to come back, who wanted the same thing he sought? Last edited by Tinman : 05-29-2009 at 11:48 AM.

05-29-2009, 01:48 PM	#2
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	To me it always seemed obvious that if the survival and re-emergence of Sauron was known, that of the Ring would come into view as well. At the time the Council did not know with surety that the Necromancer in Mirkwood was indeed Sauron. It was in the interest of Saruman to keep the possible rise of Sauron a secret, so he could keep the one Ring out of the picture as well. If Sauron's rise was immediately evident, the White Council would have immediately thought of the one Ring too. I'm sure Saruman would have wanted that to stay hushed up so nobody would interfere in his search. __________________ We are not things.

06-02-2009, 05:23 PM	#3
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I also suspect that Sauron was already influencing Saruman through the Palantir, which had, of course, had been at Orthanc continously since that fortress had been built. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

06-07-2009, 02:37 PM	#5
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I don't think that at all. Saruman was playing Sauron for all he was worth until he could get his claws on the One. Then, the tables would have been turned. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

06-11-2009, 04:42 PM	#6
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	Saruman was playing a risky game. He thought that he was the only one that knew where the ring was lost (he found out via the Minas Tirith archives), and had sent people there to search for it, but had only found a few related items. He hoped that Sauron's presence would bring the ring to light in the area in search of it's master, but that he would intercept it first. Later, when he learns that Sauron's servants are searching the same area as he is, so must know of the ring's fate, he okays the attack. The Timeline: 2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron. who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir. He finds Thráin and receives the key of Erebor. Thráin dies in Dol Guldur. 2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields. 2939 Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council. 2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of the Five Armies in Dale. Death of Thorin II. Bard of Esgaroth slays Smaug. Dáin of the Iron Hills becomes King under the Mountain (Dáin II). 2942 Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor. __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

06-03-2009, 12:13 PM	#4
Tinman Enting Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 68	It just seems paradoxial... He keeps sauron a secret to hide the ring, but wants to bring sauron to light to reveal the ring... I feel like tolkien had two idea's and switched them on us half way through.

06-12-2009, 10:52 AM	#7
Tinman Enting Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 68	Does Saruman everfind out that Frodo Baggins has the ring? i know he figures out the halflings probably have it, as thats the whole point in Two towers in the orcs not killing merry and pippin out right... but how much does gandalf tell him in the end? Does he make saruman aware of the fact that "hey, bilbo found this cool ring... whats your oppinion" or, does gandalf subconciously never trust him?

06-16-2009, 06:55 PM	#8
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I know that he knew that the Ring was abroad and borne by a Hobbit. I doubt Frodo's name ever crossed his darkest dreams. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

06-18-2009, 04:29 PM	#9
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	I suspect he knew it was a Hobbit and picked up the name Baggins from his spies. And, of course, he learned after the ring was destroyed. __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

09-09-2009, 06:07 PM	#10
Ingwe Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Somewhere not of this world Posts: 402	I don't know if it's worth mentioning or not, but Saruman was a servant of Aule as Sauron was. They likely had similar interests, skills, and so on. They were both deceivers as well. Now Aule the Smith probably didn't teach deceit unless it was to be used against Morgoth. They were crafty folks. Saruman attempted his own ring, as a contingency plan obviously. He was always aware his plan might fail. He didn't go about everything, ignorant of the possible consequences. As long as he had lived, he'd have known this. Obviously he was mad with power near the end and not as secretive about it as he once was. Saruman's plan was so good that it took a heck of a force to punch holes through it. Gandalf the Grey was powerful in and of himself, even before his conversion to Gandalf the White through the loss of his former life force. Even he couldn't beat through Saruman's plans alone. Whereas Saruman appreciated things like crafting and using arcane artifacts to use as weapons, Gandalf was focused on peace and eliminating the enemy but wasn't heavy on military intelligence and weapons knowledge. He was an excellent mage as any wizard was, but that's really about it. It took Rohan, the Fellowship, and of course the Ents to even begin to poke holes in Saruman's plans. It took nearly the utter destruction and burning of Rohan. It would take years and years to rebuild Rohan's former glory. Saruman's hordes were quite powerful for as [comparatively] few they were {comparatively, as 'compared' to Sauron's forces}. Saruman was quite wise, but filled with greed he fell to numbers, and the one unwise thing he did was to imprison Gandalf, as this set everyone to quick alert once Gandalf escaped. Gandalf was held atop the tower Orthanc, in an open space - that was a pretty bad idea. Why not hold him inside a 20 foot thick wall with a horde of Uruk-hai guarding him at all times? With him imprisoned, his staff taken, he wouldn't present as much of a threat to Saruman. Saruman did act unwise, in exposing himself. But it was either that or risking the ring's interception by someone else. It was like trying to kick a field goal. You don't know if you're going to make it at all until the ball is kicked. And this part after all seems to have been the riskiest part of his plan. Any bold plan becomes boldest in its final phases. The biggest mess-ups are going to be made then. Sauron himself also knew what Saruman was planning at this point. Sauron knew how Saruman thought. They likely did know each other very early on. Sauron's control over Saruman may have begun when Saruman went into the east, may have begun through the palantir, or may have never happened at all. Saruman seems to have been acting at all times on his own, against Sauron's will as much as against the will of the West. He was the enemy of all by that point. It is amazing that he wasn't completely overwhelmed a lot earlier, showing how solid his plan was and how wise he was. It'd have been very hard indeed, for anyone else to have executed a plan that offered themselves that amount of protection. And it took the Ents - The Ents - to undermine Saruman. No other assailant would have been enough. Rivendell or Lothlorien? They'd be pigs to the slaughter! Mirkwood or the Grey Havens? They wouldn't stand much of a chance either. Gondor or Rohan? Well, they're more "brute force" than the Elves and may have punched through the walls of Isengard, but wouldn't have gotten far. Gandalf's plan of sending Hobbits to undermine the enemy didn't just work against Sauron. It worked against Saruman too! If I was to fear anyone in Lord of the Rings the most, it would probably be Samwise Gamgee and Pippin! __________________ I'm back. Everyone fear for their lives. Arrggghhh! Get to the choppa, it's Godzilla, fighting Indiana Jones, Copyright, uh-oh!

09-24-2009, 11:54 AM	#11
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I suspect that Galadriel and Elrond would prove doughtier opponents to Saruman than you think, but they were far away and had other interests. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

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