Moria, Sauron, and the Balrog

[Forkbeard]

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

Well, Sauron was offering Moria, as you contend. Had the Dwarves wanted, say, Belegost, he would have offered them that as well. But Belegost was destroyed in the War of Wrath, so it cannot be given, and nor can Moria. The Balrog is not in Sauron's power. Sauron also offers the Dwarves back the three rings of the seven that he possesses.

Sauron the Deciever, is sometimes his name. He is a liar without shame, just like his former master, and the dwarves, just like the Eldar, were not decieved again.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

he just a liar!

Seriously, though, Sauron would always use the power of desire for his own ends, eg: Dwarves would have desired moria, therefore, sauron offers it, men desire power, sauron offers it to easterlings and southrons, he just doesn't actually give it.

his power had been, and always would have been, the predatory nature towards anybody who has a desire for something.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

Kind of lying, but in a way, kind of telling the truth. The (unknown )horseman tells them they would get those three rings and that Moria would be theirs forever. That COULD be as a 'final resting place'... as it was for Balin.

If they DID give news (leading to the 'capture and conviction' of one said hobbit), Sauron may have given them the three rings (for which he presumably had no use... they were possibly 'geared for dwarves') and sent them on their way to Moria, and they would have joined Balin & Company (as 'permanent' inhabitants ). The rings would only fuel their desire to return to Moria and delve its riches.

OR... Sauron may have given them neither rings NOR tried to make good on his promise.

Sauron may have been on good terms with the Balrog... they must have known each other a couple ages before. And I suspect Orcs could have traveled and brought news from one place to another... so that word of Balin's arrival there - and his eventual destruction - would have reached Sauron.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Some interesting concepts, Val, I believe that it could have been a mixture of things (covering myself from all angles )

[Attalus]

I'm with those that way that Sauron was just lied. Dain said, at the Council of Elrond,

We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old.

Once they told where the Shire lay, and who Bilbo was, the cat would have been out of the bag, and how could the Dwarves enforce their contract?

[Wayfarer]

Given that Orcs from Mordor, Moria, and Isengard were working together to capture the Ring, I don't think it's impossible that Sauron could have been allies with the Balrog.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Given that Orcs from Mordor, Moria, and Isengard were working together to capture the Ring, I don't think it's impossible that Sauron could have been allies with the Balrog.

Oh, I entirely agree. Certainly they knew each other. As somebody says, it is difficult to know when those foul folk are cooperating or cheating each other.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I'm with those that way that Sauron was just lied. Dain said, at the Council of Elrond, Once they told where the Shire lay, and who Bilbo was, the cat would have been out of the bag, and how could the Dwarves enforce their contract?

I'll pick on Attalus, simply because he's the last in the string as I start to write!

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.

Deceit by the way, doesn't mean to just lie. It means to decieve, a process that works best if there is some truth mixed in.

Which is why I think Val's suggestion may have a good deal of merit---he'd give them Moria all right...lots of little dwarf bones in the main hall forever! MWWAAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAA

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe he would try again to enslave the Dain as he did to the Nazgûl.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'll pick on Attalus, simply because he's the last in the string as I start to write!

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.

Deceit by the way, doesn't mean to just lie. It means to decieve, a process that works best if there is some truth mixed in.

Which is why I think Val's suggestion may have a good deal of merit---he'd give them Moria all right...lots of little dwarf bones in the main hall forever! MWWAAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAA

FB

True, but to a tyrant like Sauron, losing anything of his realm would be difficult. I can see a scenario where the Dwarves betray Bilbo, and Sauron regains the Ring, and he uses the offer to give Moria back to feed the Dwarves to the Balrog, who would have attacked them whether Sauron willed it or no. Whether or not the Balrog knew much about Sauron, I don't think that there is much doubt that Sauron knew what Durin's Bane was.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.
FB

Sauron is a liar, and he has lied before. The betrayal of Barahir by Gorlim springs to mind. Thats the reason the dwarves are unwilling to listen to him, because they know that Sauron wont give them Moria and the dwarvish rings he has.

And as you say, he went to a lot of trouble to get the rings off the dwarves in the first place. So why then would he turn around and give them back? He'll offer anything to get the One Ring, and when he gets that, what power in middle-earth is there that will make him keep his word?

Thats the reason the rings of power exist in the first place. Sauron didn't help in their making out of the goodness of his own heart, after all.