Evil Elves!

hectorberlioz · 07-22-2003, 12:58 PM

Evil elves! no, not really. Tolkien made the elf king of mirkwood in the hobbit have a soft spot for gems and he was acting quite irational torwards thorin, but in lotr all elves seem to be flawless, just wondering what you guys think about it.

p.s: Hobbit is my fav!

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 07-24-2003, 05:44 PM

Elves are not flawless. Look at Feanor, and Maeglin, and Eol, and I'm sure there are others. Actually, I think all Evles have some sort of flaw, just like humans. Look at the Kinslaying. I doubt Tolkien would create a flawless race.

Shadowfax · 07-25-2003, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OrnelÃ*rÃ« MistÃ«
Elves are not flawless. Look at Feanor, and Maeglin, and Eol, and I'm sure there are others. Actually, I think all Evles have some sort of flaw, just like humans. Look at the Kinslaying. I doubt Tolkien would create a flawless race.

Well-said, OrnelÃ*rÃ« MistÃ«. I agree 100%.

elixir · 07-29-2003, 05:58 PM

Well, think about where those elves lived. Mirkwood was a pretty evil and horrible place at that time. Beside, elves seem to have something against dwarves... And yes, they're not flawless either, but that's what makes them interesting

Anglorfin · 07-29-2003, 06:05 PM

Wasn't there a very similar thread somewhere around here? Or is that just my mind playing tricks on me. Anyway I do sort of agree. In the Hobbit, the Elf King seemed uncharacteristically greedy for an Elf. His hate for Dwarves can be understood, but why all the lust? What would he have done with it all? Or was that too part of the lure of a dragon's treasure?

hectorberlioz · 07-29-2003, 08:54 PM

Dont worry guys, just thought it an interesting subject. yeah i found another thread almost just like this, sorry.

Nimrodel_White_Lady · 07-31-2003, 11:42 AM

I agree, the Elven King in the Hobbit was a bit greedy, but if you think about it, Tolkien devised The Hobbit even before The Silmarillion, and so it was his first chance to develop an Elven character. He probably thought it over, and then changed the Elves in his later works to be less greedy, but still, not perfect.

~Lessien Nimrodel

legolialis · 08-04-2003, 10:09 PM

Eleves are by far the most incredible species created by tolkien but any perfect species would be boring. I think it's good that he gave the elf king flaws. with power comes the ability to be corrupted just like in humans. Not all elves are greedy but I think that being in the kings position gave him power and maybe even elves can be overthrown by power which is why elrond didn't want to tak the ring because he might have wanted to use it or keep it. Just my thoughts

RohirrimGuy · 09-21-2003, 08:07 AM

Ugh, if Elves had no flaws I wouldn't read the Hobbit. That's what's good about the Hobbit is it shows everybody's flaws.

In LOTR, Elves are perfect..in most ways anyway.

Bombadillo · 09-22-2003, 08:50 PM

Yeah, I don't like to give reasons from the story why are the Mirkwood elves to evil. As a matter of fact, I don't think they're evil so much as preoccupied with all day parties. I guess they're irrisponsile more than anything.

Either way, I don't believe that Tolkien ever intended for questions like this to arise. He did wright the Hobbit before LotR, so he apparently hadn't decided yet that the elves should be perfect and sober.

RohirrimGuy · 09-22-2003, 09:52 PM

The Hobbit was meant to be a childrens book, and if the Elves weren;t irresponsible, then kids wouldn't relate!

hectorberlioz · 09-29-2003, 04:00 PM

Wow! i figured this thread had gone down long ago...
Of course no race should be perfect(least of all elves

. just joking) I was realll wanting to point out to some of my 'elves are perfect' friends that elves are definitely not perfect. i showed the the hobbit and they got mad and said they did not count it as part of the lotr story.

Gamigar · 10-13-2003, 08:40 PM

i don't think that the mirkwood elves acted much differently to thorin and company than the lorien elves did to gimli.

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-29-2003, 01:01 AM

Certainly the elves in LOTR seem less flawed then the Hobbit or Silmarillion elves. If third age elves have a flaw it might be not so much "evil" as insularity. That is essentially how Mirkwood and Lorien elves seem to react to not just dwarves, but hobbits and humans who enter. Perhaps related to their "fading." Rivendell was more outgoing, perhaps due to being near a main road, a home for Isildur's heirs and base of the rangers, and its head being halfelven.

And a strain of "greed" in elves might be seen in all three ages, for example
1---(Feanor and kids trying to get the silmarils against all rational considerations for success,
2---Celebrimbor forging the Three Rings and other rings,
3---and Thranduil "had a great love for jewels and riches, and it may have been this love that led him to excesses, especially with the Dwarves", the complete guide to Middle-earth.

Maedhros · 11-29-2003, 10:01 AM

Quote:

I agree, the Elven King in the Hobbit was a bit greedy, but if you think about it, Tolkien devised The Hobbit even before The Silmarillion, and so it was his first chance to develop an Elven character. He probably thought it over, and then changed the Elves in his later works to be less greedy, but still, not perfect.

Nooperz. JRRT had already a great part of the legendarium at work, before he began working in the Hobbit. The elven king which is mentioned in the Hobbit by the narrator is King Thingol from the Tale of the Nauglafring (quarrel of dwarves and elves from ancient times), which was written well before the Hobbit.

07-22-2003, 12:58 PM	#1
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Evil Elves! Evil elves! no, not really. Tolkien made the elf king of mirkwood in the hobbit have a soft spot for gems and he was acting quite irational torwards thorin, but in lotr all elves seem to be flawless, just wondering what you guys think about it. p.s: Hobbit is my fav! __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

07-24-2003, 05:44 PM	#2
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Elves are not flawless. Look at Feanor, and Maeglin, and Eol, and I'm sure there are others. Actually, I think all Evles have some sort of flaw, just like humans. Look at the Kinslaying. I doubt Tolkien would create a flawless race. __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?"

07-29-2003, 05:58 PM	#4
elixir Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: wherever my dreams take me Posts: 356	Well, think about where those elves lived. Mirkwood was a pretty evil and horrible place at that time. Beside, elves seem to have something against dwarves... And yes, they're not flawless either, but that's what makes them interesting __________________ ~ Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you ~ "We've got a wizard and we're not afraid to use him!" HOBBITS NEEDED! Some dwarves as well !!!

07-29-2003, 06:05 PM	#5
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	Wasn't there a very similar thread somewhere around here? Or is that just my mind playing tricks on me. Anyway I do sort of agree. In the Hobbit, the Elf King seemed uncharacteristically greedy for an Elf. His hate for Dwarves can be understood, but why all the lust? What would he have done with it all? Or was that too part of the lure of a dragon's treasure? __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

07-29-2003, 08:54 PM	#6
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Dont worry guys, just thought it an interesting subject. yeah i found another thread almost just like this, sorry. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

07-31-2003, 11:42 AM	#7
Nimrodel_White_Lady Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Pond Posts: 19	I agree, the Elven King in the Hobbit was a bit greedy, but if you think about it, Tolkien devised The Hobbit even before The Silmarillion, and so it was his first chance to develop an Elven character. He probably thought it over, and then changed the Elves in his later works to be less greedy, but still, not perfect. ~Lessien Nimrodel __________________ "Your absolutely right! Here's luck to you Will!" "A red sun rises, blood has been spilt on this night" Arrr to the Elven Pirate... savvy? Arrr ye be a muppet -------> =0

08-04-2003, 10:09 PM	#8
legolialis Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: michigan Posts: 22	Eleves are by far the most incredible species created by tolkien but any perfect species would be boring. I think it's good that he gave the elf king flaws. with power comes the ability to be corrupted just like in humans. Not all elves are greedy but I think that being in the kings position gave him power and maybe even elves can be overthrown by power which is why elrond didn't want to tak the ring because he might have wanted to use it or keep it. Just my thoughts

09-21-2003, 08:07 AM	#9
RohirrimGuy Sapling Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 12	Ugh, if Elves had no flaws I wouldn't read the Hobbit. That's what's good about the Hobbit is it shows everybody's flaws. In LOTR, Elves are perfect..in most ways anyway. __________________ "I return to you now, at the turn of the tide!" -Gandalf TTT "Red sun rises, blood has been spilled this night!" -Legolas Greenleaf TTT "If you want him, come and claim him!" -Arwen FOTR Jesus Freak! Bwaha!!

09-22-2003, 08:50 PM	#10
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	Yeah, I don't like to give reasons from the story why are the Mirkwood elves to evil. As a matter of fact, I don't think they're evil so much as preoccupied with all day parties. I guess they're irrisponsile more than anything. Either way, I don't believe that Tolkien ever intended for questions like this to arise. He did wright the Hobbit before LotR, so he apparently hadn't decided yet that the elves should be perfect and sober. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity?

09-22-2003, 09:52 PM	#11
RohirrimGuy Sapling Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 12	The Hobbit was meant to be a childrens book, and if the Elves weren;t irresponsible, then kids wouldn't relate! __________________ "I return to you now, at the turn of the tide!" -Gandalf TTT "Red sun rises, blood has been spilled this night!" -Legolas Greenleaf TTT "If you want him, come and claim him!" -Arwen FOTR Jesus Freak! Bwaha!!

09-29-2003, 04:00 PM	#12
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Wow! i figured this thread had gone down long ago... Of course no race should be perfect(least of all elves . just joking) I was realll wanting to point out to some of my 'elves are perfect' friends that elves are definitely not perfect. i showed the the hobbit and they got mad and said they did not count it as part of the lotr story. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-13-2003, 08:40 PM	#13
Gamigar Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: somewhere between here and there Posts: 116	i don't think that the mirkwood elves acted much differently to thorin and company than the lorien elves did to gimli. __________________ The road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began Now far ahead the road has gone And I must follow if I can Pursuing it with eager feet Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet And wither then I can not say

11-29-2003, 01:01 AM	#14
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Certainly the elves in LOTR seem less flawed then the Hobbit or Silmarillion elves. If third age elves have a flaw it might be not so much "evil" as insularity. That is essentially how Mirkwood and Lorien elves seem to react to not just dwarves, but hobbits and humans who enter. Perhaps related to their "fading." Rivendell was more outgoing, perhaps due to being near a main road, a home for Isildur's heirs and base of the rangers, and its head being halfelven. And a strain of "greed" in elves might be seen in all three ages, for example 1---(Feanor and kids trying to get the silmarils against all rational considerations for success, 2---Celebrimbor forging the Three Rings and other rings, 3---and Thranduil "had a great love for jewels and riches, and it may have been this love that led him to excesses, especially with the Dwarves", the complete guide to Middle-earth. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor	Artanis	The Silmarillion Project	82	09-09-2018 05:50 AM
Bombadil...theories? The Ring had no effect on him!	ringbearer	Lord of the Rings Books	166	10-08-2010 12:54 PM
Evil Elves...	Peter_20	The Silmarillion	50	06-08-2007 12:43 AM
Shadows in the East/ discussion	afro-elf	RPG Forum	45	04-15-2002 10:15 PM
Middle-earth, Hollow Earth Fingolfin	shamballa	Middle Earth	4	10-10-2001 03:55 AM