Children of the Ainur

Sween · 10-02-2003, 03:08 PM

Could the Ainur (The Valar and the Maia) have children? In a few versions of tolkiens work Enowe is infact the son of Manwe and Varda.

We know of at least one Maia who gave birth and this was Melain but she was married to Thingol and took upon and Elf form to bear the child.

The point of the Ainur is that they decended into arda at its begging to order its creation but could they produce children together? They did take wives we know that its not such a mad idea they had children of there own is it?

Sheeana · 10-02-2003, 03:42 PM

If you read the earlier HoME versions, you will see that at one stage, Tolkien was juggling with the idea of the Ainur having offspring.

Tuor of Gondolin · 10-09-2003, 01:06 PM

Melian was a Maia, so Maia could have children. But as for the greater Ainur (Vala)?

Artanis · 10-09-2003, 01:21 PM

I do not see how they could have children since they by nature were spirirts ... that is, if you view a child as a product of the bodies. I believe Melian had to incarnate heself permanently to have Thingol's child.

Arien the Maia · 10-09-2003, 08:00 PM

also, I don't think Tolkien wanted the Valar to produce since that would mean ALOT more powerful creations in the world, and they might inturn drive the other creations of Eru out of existance, if alot of them turned to evil like Melkor

Sween · 10-11-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
I do not see how they could have children since they by nature were spirirts ... that is, if you view a child as a product of the bodies. I believe Melian had to incarnate heself permanently to have Thingol's child.

Well she wasnt too Elf like she managed to pass into the west after the fall of Thingol! But also why would they take wife and husbands if they did not intend to have children. Its pretty obvious that Melkor intended to take Luthien for well wouldnt say a wife but he intended to have his way with her

Eladar · 10-11-2003, 09:25 AM

As far as I can tell, in order for and Eala to reproduce, it would need to do so with an incarnate. In the process, it would become incarnate too.

Luthien was considered an Elf until she became human to bring Beren back to Middle-earth. Yes, Luthien could sing and make things fall asleep, but Finrod could sing to do magic too. It seems to me that Tolkien's later writings kind of blurred the lines between Ainur and Elves, at least his second essay on Glorfindel left me with that impression.

But going back to the question, Tolkien abandoned the idea of Ainur reproduction. No, they do not reproduce with each other.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-11-2003, 01:23 PM

It's interesting that they don't reproduce. I wonder why Tolkien gave them genders and spouses in spirit form.

Eladar · 10-11-2003, 04:12 PM

Tolkien copied other myths and in other myths the gods have mates and children. I believe this is why he originally went with the idea and did have Ainur children, but later decided it didn't fit with the myth he wanted to tell.

There was a need to do away with the children, but there was no need to get rid of the mates. As a matter of fact, it was benefit to have Elbereth to be the wife of Manwe.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-11-2003, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eladar
Tolkien copied other myths and in other myths the gods have mates and children. I believe this is why he originally went with the idea and did have Ainur children, but later decided it didn't fit with the myth he wanted to tell.

There was a need to do away with the children, but there was no need to get rid of the mates. As a matter of fact, it was benefit to have Elbereth to be the wife of Manwe.

You know, I wonder if he paired them accordingly. Matching them with their tasks. Manwe, wind and birds. Varda, stars. Doesn't it seem that they were matched to feminine and masculine tasks in some ways?

Eladar · 10-11-2003, 11:58 PM

I can definitely see the feminine vs. masculine with Aule and Yavanna. There is a tention between craftsmanship and nature and is fitting the tention between masculine and feminine.

I think their discussion about dwarves sums it up well

Quote:

'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-12-2003, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eladar
I can definitely see the feminine vs. masculine with Aule and Yavanna. There is a tention between craftsmanship and nature and is fitting the tention between masculine and feminine.

I think their discussion about dwarves sums it up well

Well put. I agree.

10-02-2003, 03:08 PM	#1
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	Children of the Ainur Could the Ainur (The Valar and the Maia) have children? In a few versions of tolkiens work Enowe is infact the son of Manwe and Varda. We know of at least one Maia who gave birth and this was Melain but she was married to Thingol and took upon and Elf form to bear the child. The point of the Ainur is that they decended into arda at its begging to order its creation but could they produce children together? They did take wives we know that its not such a mad idea they had children of there own is it? __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

10-09-2003, 01:21 PM	#4
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I do not see how they could have children since they by nature were spirirts ... that is, if you view a child as a product of the bodies. I believe Melian had to incarnate heself permanently to have Thingol's child. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 10-09-2003 at 01:23 PM.

10-11-2003, 01:23 PM	#8
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	It's interesting that they don't reproduce. I wonder why Tolkien gave them genders and spouses in spirit form. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

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10-02-2003, 03:42 PM	#2
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	If you read the earlier HoME versions, you will see that at one stage, Tolkien was juggling with the idea of the Ainur having offspring.

10-09-2003, 01:06 PM	#3
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Melian was a Maia, so Maia could have children. But as for the greater Ainur (Vala)?

10-09-2003, 08:00 PM	#5
Arien the Maia Fëanáro's Fire Mistress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indiana, USA Posts: 1,423	also, I don't think Tolkien wanted the Valar to produce since that would mean ALOT more powerful creations in the world, and they might inturn drive the other creations of Eru out of existance, if alot of them turned to evil like Melkor

10-11-2003, 09:25 AM	#7
Eladar Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 15	As far as I can tell, in order for and Eala to reproduce, it would need to do so with an incarnate. In the process, it would become incarnate too. Luthien was considered an Elf until she became human to bring Beren back to Middle-earth. Yes, Luthien could sing and make things fall asleep, but Finrod could sing to do magic too. It seems to me that Tolkien's later writings kind of blurred the lines between Ainur and Elves, at least his second essay on Glorfindel left me with that impression. But going back to the question, Tolkien abandoned the idea of Ainur reproduction. No, they do not reproduce with each other.

10-11-2003, 04:12 PM	#9
Eladar Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 15	Tolkien copied other myths and in other myths the gods have mates and children. I believe this is why he originally went with the idea and did have Ainur children, but later decided it didn't fit with the myth he wanted to tell. There was a need to do away with the children, but there was no need to get rid of the mates. As a matter of fact, it was benefit to have Elbereth to be the wife of Manwe.