Elves Wimp Out?

[Balin, Lord of Moria]

I've always been a bit peeved at the elves in LoTR, as, just as Sauron is marshalling his forces to crush all of Middle Earth, the elves are gradually bailing out on Middle Earth and taking the ships west. It just seems like they could have stepped up and stuck around a little while longer and played a larger role in standing up to Sauron. I'm not saying they didn't help in certain ways and they didn't have reasons to be leaving Middle Eart, but it seems they could have done a lot more and as a whole been more engaged in the whole situation. Thoughts?

[Galin]

Keep in mind that the Elves fought in the War of the Ring, and like King Brand, aided by the Dwarves of Erebor, the Elves of Lórien and Mirkwood also defended their Realms against the enemy.

The whole assault was not focused on Gondor, as Legolas notes to Gimli in The Passing of the Grey Company, concerning both their kinsfolk: 'They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.'

[Olmer]

Maybe the thread "Were the Elves allies to Gondor" will be helpful.

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11469

[Balin, Lord of Moria]

Originally Posted by Galin

Keep in mind that the Elves fought in the War of the Ring, and like King Brand, aided by the Dwarves of Erebor, the Elves of Lórien and Mirkwood also defended their Realms against the enemy.

The whole assault was not focused on Gondor, as Legolas notes to Gimli in The Passing of the Grey Company, concerning both their kinsfolk: 'They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.'

I think the Lorien and Mirkwood Elves have some claim to protecting their own lands, as you note, so their ability to send aid is at least somewhat limited. But then there are Rivendell and Grey Havens Elves, and possibly others, where their home locations weren't under much threat. Certainly by themselves they couldn't have stood against Mordor, but a contingent of Elves, led by Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan, for example, could have been of immense help in Rohan and/or Gondor.

Of all the peoples of ME, the Elves seem to most aware of the growing threat of Sauron over time (Elrond, Galadriel, etc.), and thus would seem to have some lead time and be quite interested in marshalling efforts, including at least some of their own forces, to help battle against the forces of Mordor.

For Rivendell, it makes no military sense to hold back your forces, watch your strongest potential military allies be defeated (if Rohan and Gondor had lost militarily), and then think that your forces alone would have a chance of holding off Mordor. Much better to throw in your lot with other enemies of your enemy. Or did they think they could all scoot to the Grey Havens and be out of ME by the time Gondor and Rohan would be overrun and thus not have to worry or care about facing Mordor or what happened to ME after they were gone?


Particularly given their much longer history of battling against Sauron, going all the way back to Beleriand and the key role he played in the defeat and downfall of so many Elvish kingdoms. To me the War of the Ring was very much a fight that was of Elvish interest and responsibility, or should have been.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Balin, Lord of Moria

I think the Lorien and Mirkwood Elves have some claim to protecting their own lands, as you note, so their ability to send aid is at least somewhat limited. But then there are Rivendell and Grey Havens Elves, and possibly others, where their home locations weren't under much threat. Certainly by themselves they couldn't have stood against Mordor, but a contingent of Elves, led by Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan, for example, could have been of immense help in Rohan and/or Gondor.

'Immense help' is not a given I think, and Boromir, son of the Steward, does not seem to think this way. He does not ask for, or expect, an armed contingent from Rivendell. 'But I do not seek allies in war. The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said.'

'It is said' arguably because it was true enough. Elrond summed up: 'Never again shall there be any such league of Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the two kindreds are estranged.' And although Elrond's sons went south, and were certain to find war there, was it wholly certain that Rivendell would not be attacked?

Gandalf stated: 'How would he begin? would he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lorien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough, was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us.' The Quest of Erebor Unfinished Tales

Of course Bilbo's adventures had mitigated the situation at the time; but still, there were Orcs in the Misty Mountains and Trolls in Eriador to the north of Rivendell -- or that is, was it truly known there were not enough baddies gathering 'somewhere', or waiting in secret to raid Imladris, especially if an Elvish force was noted leaving at some point? Elrond arguably had been in discussion with Gandalf concerning Sauron's 'original plan', and unless he was absolutely certain that his Realm was no longer under any threat, he might be taking a chance sending out more than his sons.

To me the War of the Ring was very much a fight that was of Elvish interest and responsibility, or should have been.

The Third Age was described as the fading years of the Eldar, and they had been leaving Middle-earth, or were being slain, for thousands of years before the events of Frodo's day. From their perspective a Dark Lord was arising 'yet again', nor would Sauron's fall mean that evil itself was purged forever from Middle-earth. Yet Middle-earth was not for them to inherit. At the end of the First Age even, concerning the Noldor:

'We learn that the Exiled Elves were, if not commanded, at least sternly counselled to return into the West, and there be at peace.' JRRT, letter 131

In the Second Age we have the War of the Elves and Sauron, the Last Alliance, and in this Age many, many Elves die. Others sail. The existence of Elves becomes almost legendary to some in the Third Age -- small hidden realms of lingering Elves, some of the Eldar staying because the Rings give them a bit of a semblance of the West.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I've often wondered about this, specifically in regards to Glorfindel? Didn't he return to Middle Earth for the specific purpose of opposing Sauron and other remnant forces of Morgoth? Other than loaning his horse to Frodo and chasing some Nazgul into a river, what did this guy do?

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I've often wondered about this, specifically in regards to Glorfindel? Didn't he return to Middle Earth for the specific purpose of opposing Sauron and other remnant forces of Morgoth? Other than loaning his horse to Frodo and chasing some Nazgul into a river, what did this guy do?

He was more active earlier in the Third Age, while the kingdom of Arnor still lasted, and fought against the Witchking of Angmar - he said the words about him not going to fall by the hand of a man.

It is also possible that he returned some time during the Second Age, in time to join the Last Alliance, perhaps even early enough to have joined the fight against Sauron when the truth about his ringmaking was revealed.

[Galin]

Seemingly at some point between the texts Glorfindel I and Glorfindel II -- the latter being the conception that Glorfindel was sent back for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond -- Tolkien noted: '... when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the War.'

In Glorfindel I, the Elven hero was said to have been sent as a companion to Gandalf, in the Third Age. I rather like this simpler idea, although according to CJRT Tolkien appears to have revised this for Glorfindel II, which 'undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval'

Ah well. In any case it looks like Tolkien intended to add to Glorfindel's history, due to his decision in 1972 that the 'two' were the same being.

[Draken]

I agree with the general tone of the replies above. The great majority of the Noldorin and Sindarin elves in Middle Earth were dead or had gone West. While there were some high profile survivors (eg Galadriel), what was left was essentially "wood elves" with a smattering of Sindarin and the odd Noldorin.

The wood elves never fielded strong "regular" armies - I believe their one attempt to do so in the War of the Jewels led to a bloodbath due to their lack of armour. They could offer defence of their lands, because woodland suited their "hit and run" style of guerilla warfare, but they couldn't stand and slug it out with a legion of Uruks and have any realistic chance of winning.

[Olmer]

but they couldn't stand and slug it out with a legion of Uruks and have any realistic chance of winning.

So, you think that they will fare better, if Gondor would be overthrown, and legions of Uruks would march on the land, which used to be a barrier, protecting theirs untroubled existence?
It is not the question whether they had enough of people to send the help, because one can’t compare ridiculous “wars” they had with the battles on Pelennore and Cormallen fields, crucial for a peaceful existence of the whole ME . Cirdan and Elrond had not have a dire need to defend themselves at that time, but, instead of gathering any help (say, by sending Gildor's merry men ) to enforce Gondor's army, outnumbered by the enemy in many times, they are sitting and waiting. Waiting for what? To be the next after Gondor? Are they their own enemies? Are they so stupid?
It's look like... unless they have nothing to worry about Sauron's reprisal. And it only could be because of the silent agreement with Sauron: they are not meddling in his affairs, and he won't stay on their way while they are getting the hell out of ME. Then all inactivity of the Elves can be easily explained.

[Galin]

Elrond and Cirdan fought in the early Third Age against the minions of Sauron too, albeit over one thousand years before the Steward of Gondor's son comes to Rivendell seeking counsel, not military aid.

Again we are in the late Third Age by the time Boromir arrives, keeping in mind the description in The Shadow Of The Past, about the Elves sailing West. And: 'It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were prob. more people (Men) that knew Q,. or spoke S., than there were Elves who did either!' JRRT, 1972, letter 347

This is quite the statement I think, considering Tolkien had published: 'In the days of the Numenorean kings this ennobled Westron speech spread far and wide, even among their enemies; and it became used more and more by the Dunedain themselves, so that at the time of the War of the Ring the elven tongue was known to only a small part of the peoples of Gondor, and spoken daily by fewer.' Appendix F

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Olmer

So, you think that they will fare better, if Gondor would be overthrown, and legions of Uruks would march on the land, which used to be a barrier, protecting theirs untroubled existence?

So you think in 1944 ther French resistance all turned up at Normandy? No, they held the territory they had and tied down far more Germans that way.

The same with the elves: they are threatened by orcs from southern Mirkwood, and they stand and fight. They do what they do best: a defensive war in woodland, tying down orc forces who would otherwise be free to attack Rohan and Gondor.

[Balin, Lord of Moria]

Originally Posted by Draken

So you think in 1944 ther French resistance all turned up at Normandy? No, they held the territory they had and tied down far more Germans that way.

The same with the elves: they are threatened by orcs from southern Mirkwood, and they stand and fight. They do what they do best: a defensive war in woodland, tying down orc forces who would otherwise be free to attack Rohan and Gondor.

I think the difference is that at Normandy, the good guys had at least a good chance to succeed militarily. And the French resistance wasn't gradually leaving France and going to somewhere far away and free from the military struggle.

In Middle Earth, militarily, Sauron's forces had the advantage overall (or at least that's the impression I'm left with), so if that's the case, it's easier for them to pick off Gondor without Elven assistance, than if they had some Elven help and leadership there. I've always thought one of the problems Minas Tirith had when it was attacked is that it was virtually leaderless, other than Gandalf. Faramir was incapacitated, Boromir dead, Denethor gone bonkers and then dead. A bit of elf leadership, and elves who had dealt with Nazgul and such before, like Elrond and Glorfindel, could have had a much bigger impact than just the number of elves would lead one to believe.

Oh, and I don't buy into any agreement between Sauron and the elves. While I'm not enamored with the elves not participating as actively as they could have, that's a far cry from being in any sort of league with the dark lord of Mordor. The elves certainly were totally opposed to Sauron in principal and in history. Nothing tells me otherwise. That's what makes it hard for me to see their less than fully active participation in the War of the Ring.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Balin, Lord of Moria

Oh, and I don't buy into any agreement between Sauron and the elves. While I'm not enamored with the elves not participating as actively as they could have, that's a far cry from being in any sort of league with the dark lord of Mordor. The elves certainly were totally opposed to Sauron in principal and in history. Nothing tells me otherwise.

Exactly.

"The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him."
Gandalf in Many Meetings, FotR

So whether Elrond made a wise decision or not, he didn't make it expressly to help Sauron in his efforts.

[Willow Oran]

Cirdan and Elrond had not have a dire need to defend themselves at that time, but, instead of gathering any help (say, by sending Gildor's merry men ) to enforce Gondor's army, outnumbered by the enemy in many times, they are sitting and waiting. Waiting for what? To be the next after Gondor?

Yes. Because if Gondor had fallen, where else would people have run to? Elrond and Cirdan were lords of refuges, their strength, demonstrated in previous ages, was in withstanding long, hopeless seeming sieges, and holding on to just enough territory for the people under them - probably often a mixed group of elves and men whose homes had been lost already - to survive.

If the few remaining elven warriors had all gone south to fight for Gondor, and Gondor had fallen, those last refuges would have been left completely undefended. By holding their warriors in reserve, Elrond and Cirdan were ensuring that even if the worst happened and Sauron won, there would still be tose last remaining pockets of resistance, which is fitting, given that the entire strategy of the story hinges on maintaining and acting on hope, however desperate it may be.

[Olmer]

So you think in 1944 ther French resistance all turned up at Normandy? No, they held the territory they had and tied down far more Germans that way.

The French resistance, you say... It is a bad example, my friend, because the circumstances were totally different. But, maybe, we can find some parallels. Let's see...
Fance did not stand and fight. From 1939 it was in collaboration with the occupied Nazi's regime. Hitler just walk over it, and he had been much kinder to France then to another European countries, occupied by his armies.
Yes, it were restrictions, curfews and censorship, but it was incomparable with atrocities in Poland or Russia. Life was uncomfortable, but bearable, and almost for 3 years the Resistance was down to a pasting anti-German leaflets and minor sabotages at plants and factories. The activists, who had been caught, were being punished, but the regime did not use statewide actions to eliminate the resistance totally. They were no threat.

I see a similar attitude of Sauron to the pesky Elves: they were annoying, but posed no danger to Sauron’s domain. Besides, they were leaving any way. So, let it be…
If Sauron would see a danger from the Elve’s neighborhood , he would do as Hitler did to a Free Republic of Vercor, established by the Resistance. He would just wiped out the whole army of tree’s partisans by sending twice more soldiers than the Resistance had had. For Sauron it would be much easier, he was not at the war with Gondor, yet, and he did not have the West front, like Hitler, figting bloodshed battles against the powerful and innumerable enemy.

Keeping in mind that the destruction of Vercor had happened because they had no back up, no allies to help them in a dire strife. All their pleas to the Free French army to help to counter the Germans went unanswered.
The Elves also did not have an allies, even sympathizers were just a few.
I think, if worst would come to worst, the Elves, with all their skill and great warriors, on their own, without a support of the allies, wouldn’t have a chance to withstand the great armies of Uruks.
This fact is quite obvious, and Sauron, if he would want to get rid of the Elves, would do it a long time ago.
But he did not.
And this means he was comfortable with the developed situation.

On another hand the Elves, knowing that Gondor has no chances to withstand Sauron, and with this quite certainly the borders of their domain would get flooded with Orcs, did not do nothing to help Gondor, thus to help themselves.
Such carelessness is puzzling, but if you assume that it had been a silent agreement between two former enemies to keep a neutrality, then everything is falling in the right place.


The French Resistance really grew in power at the end of the war, after being supported by army of General De Gaulle and the allies, and they fought hard and admirably, helping to change the outcome of the war. But it was just 2% of able-bodied men of France. The rest of frenchmen did not rush to help to liberate theirs country. They were sitting tight and waiting of the outcome, because in either way it was not treatining to their existance.
Thus it was similar to the Elves inactivity.

[Balin, Lord of Moria]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Yes. Because if Gondor had fallen, where else would people have run to? Elrond and Cirdan were lords of refuges, their strength, demonstrated in previous ages, was in withstanding long, hopeless seeming sieges, and holding on to just enough territory for the people under them - probably often a mixed group of elves and men whose homes had been lost already - to survive.

If the few remaining elven warriors had all gone south to fight for Gondor, and Gondor had fallen, those last refuges would have been left completely undefended. By holding their warriors in reserve, Elrond and Cirdan were ensuring that even if the worst happened and Sauron won, there would still be tose last remaining pockets of resistance, which is fitting, given that the entire strategy of the story hinges on maintaining and acting on hope, however desperate it may be.

If Gondor (and therefore also Rohan undoubtedly) fell, there's no way Elrond or Cirdan would be a long term safe refuge assuming Sauron wanted to continue his conquest of Middle Earth. If they have the strength to be a refuge and hold off Sauron's hordes, then that's a strong argument that they should join with Gondor and Rohan to defeat Sauron's forces together, rathern than allowing Sauron to deal with them piecemeal. It's just militarily illogical to do otherwise. Now, I don't believe there was that much strength in Rivindell or the Gray Havens, but if there were, it'd be better spent in concert with other enemies of Sauron, than an ill-fated effort to be an isolated refuge that would in all likelihood be overrun by the full brunt of Sauron's forces.

Realistically, if Gondor and Rohan were gone, the biggest remaining force for good would have been the area with the Mirkwood Elves, Dale men, and Erebor and Iron Hills dwarves. But, I doubt by themselves they would have stopped Sauron's forces, so if Gondor and Rohan fell, the rest of Middle Earth reasonably had little chance of holding on very long on the battlefield. Although Gondor and Rohan were both weakened at this time, they still seemed to me to be the main bulwarks on the side of good against Mordor and its allies.

[Galin]

This fact is quite obvious, and Sauron, if he would want to get rid of the Elves, would do it a long time ago. But he did not. And this means he was comfortable with the developed situation.

How so? as noted, rather Gandalf explains that to attack Rivendell and Lorien was Sauron's orignal plan. See The Quest of Erebor in Unfinished Tales and Appendix A Durin's Folk.

On another hand the Elves, knowing that Gondor has no chances to withstand Sauron, and with this quite certainly the borders of their domain would get flooded with Orcs, did not do nothing to help Gondor, thus to help themselves. Such carelessness is puzzling, but if you assume that it had been a silent agreement between two former enemies to keep a neutrality, then everything is falling in the right place.

Olmer, about when do you imagine this 'silent agreement' took place? and you keep writing 'Elves', but who specifically do you imagine entered into an agreement of neutrality with Mordor?

Shirley you are implying Elrond at least: lord of Rivendell, the blood of Elves and Men in his veins, noble as an Elf-lord, wize as a wizard, kind as Summer (as described), virtual parent to Aragorn, parent to Elladan and Elrohir, themselves sent South with the Dunedain. Let's swim out of general waters here.

Keep in mind that it was not until 2,850 years had passed in the Third Age, that Gandalf himself discovered that Sauron had indeed arisen again. Earlier Elrond fought against the Realm of Angmar, about 25 years before the year 2000, and when 60 more years pass the Wise only fear Sauron may be taking shape, but they don't know.

Did Elrond enter into this pact of neutrality, or silently decide to remain neutral, anytime before the White Council (on which Elrond certainly sits) attacked Dol Guldur in year 2941 (Sauron did not even declare himself openly until TA 2951).

If not, are you claiming that the son of Earendil, who knew all too well the deceit of Annatar in the past, in the last 77 years of the Third Age before the Great Years began (hardly a long time from an Elvish perspective) -- that is, after the attack on Dol Guldur and before 3018 when Gandalf reaches Hobbiton -- decided (for some reason) to trust Mordor and enter into a duplicitous agreement of neutrality with the Enemy of the West? or to trust in some unspoken agreement?

But I'm just speculating as to your claim

[Willow Oran]

If Gondor (and therefore also Rohan undoubtedly) fell, there's no way Elrond or Cirdan would be a long term safe refuge assuming Sauron wanted to continue his conquest of Middle Earth. If they have the strength to be a refuge and hold off Sauron's hordes

Who said anything about long term? Had circumstances become that desperate, day to day survival until they could come up with something better, or until there were too few left free for it to matter any more would have been the immediate concern, and in that case, any refuge is better than none.

As for strength - Rivendell was founded because it was a location that could be defended for an extended period of time with a relatively small force, and which was also very difficult for a hostile force to find. Even weakened to the point where they couldn't afford to send soldiers away to help with the war, they could still be strong enough to hold their own if it should come to that.

Mithlond would probably have been less defensible, seeing as Sauron already knew very well where it was - but it could have been held long enough to function as an evacuation point. Middle Earth is a larger place than Tolkien's maps show, after all. Cirdan and his sailors could have known of other lands that even the mortal races could have fled to.

Entirely speculation of course, but you must admit, it makes more sense than a Mordor-Elvish Kingdoms Conspiracy does.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Also, the idea of Sauron not giving a damn about the Elves is impossible. Or why do you think he tried to see Galadriel's thoughts? "The door is yet locked..."

As for other lands... ME was indeed larger than we have seen. But only to the North (cold), the South (Haradrim) and East (Sauron).
The only smart move would be East, and even then the refugees would have to travel the curved path around the Arda. O I doubt Sauron would care if they fled West, thinking they're goners whatsoever.
Getting on shore on the Eastern edge of ME would be folly, for Sauron would still be a potential threat but, so was sending the Ring to Mordor great folly - and it worked. Sauron, as told, only understands things the way he would do them - betrayal, max utilising, cold rationalism. Folly saves lives.