Water and Tolkien

ecthelion · 10-25-2006, 09:23 AM

It seems to me that JRR shows a fascination with water, that is more surprising with englishmen. I come from a less water-blessed country, and we usually are more sensitive to water issues, and more inclined to be awed by large lakes, rivers, rain or snow.
In JRR's works water has a unique power (There was a thread that talked about the power of water over evil: www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=4687&page=1&pp=20&highlight=water )
and much talk of water besides (like treebeard standing in the rain, and like eru showing ulmo the victory of good over evil in water).
Can anyone explain this fascination with water? Does anybody else find it surprising?

sun-star · 10-27-2006, 10:45 AM

I don't find it that surprising actually - Britain is an island, after all, and water is all around us, so I don't think it's unusual for British people to have a fascination with it. It also rains a lot here

Some literary analogues for Tolkien's interest spring to mind:
- the common association of water with magic in medieval literature (deriving, I think, from Celtic mythology). Encounters with fairies frequently take place by rivers or lakes.
- the mysterious potential of what may lie beyond the horizon over the sea, e.g. the opening of Beowulf, where Scyld Scefing both appears from the sea as a child and is launched out to sea in a ship after his death. This must have been particularly powerful before it turned out there was only America over there

- it's interesting to compare Narnia's "Emperor over the sea" (presumably God) and the fact that Aslan's country is reached by sailing to the end of the sea...

Anglorfin · 10-27-2006, 12:55 PM

I know water is a powerful symbol in many cultures and religions. In the minds of many belief systems it's considered one of the purest substances. Certainly in more shamanistic societies water is almost always revered. That plus the very real fact that water sustains life makes it a very powerful symbol for goodness.

ecthelion · 10-27-2006, 05:21 PM

I still think JRR is unique in his regrd for water, especially by giving it a power for good: like the cleaning of isengard, and by all that regards ents. also the ringwraiths afraid to cross rivers, and complete lack of water in mordor. it is different from other mithology where water is associated in general with fairies, good bad and neutral. Tolkien only has good water...
Also usually in literature rain is associated with a blue mood. With Tolkien rain is always pleasant (of what I remember).
Water has a bad context when associated with frost (snow on caradharas) or heat (steams of isengard).

As for CS lewis and Tolkien, they had alota influence over each other (of course mostly CSL copied from JRR, this is probably one of these cases

)

Anglorfin · 10-27-2006, 05:58 PM

In Christianity water was a definite symbolic element used for cleansing. People are baptized in water, and given the desert origin of most major world religions it's not surprising to see that this concept is widely shared. It's not too far a stretch for Tolkien to take his own personal beliefs and somehow (whether consciously or not) transmit them into his mythology for Middle Earth.

10-25-2006, 09:23 AM	#1
ecthelion Enting Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5 Posts: 91	Water and Tolkien It seems to me that JRR shows a fascination with water, that is more surprising with englishmen. I come from a less water-blessed country, and we usually are more sensitive to water issues, and more inclined to be awed by large lakes, rivers, rain or snow. In JRR's works water has a unique power (There was a thread that talked about the power of water over evil: www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=4687&page=1&pp=20&highlight=water ) and much talk of water besides (like treebeard standing in the rain, and like eru showing ulmo the victory of good over evil in water). Can anyone explain this fascination with water? Does anybody else find it surprising? __________________ The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean?

10-27-2006, 10:45 AM	#2
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	I don't find it that surprising actually - Britain is an island, after all, and water is all around us, so I don't think it's unusual for British people to have a fascination with it. It also rains a lot here Some literary analogues for Tolkien's interest spring to mind: - the common association of water with magic in medieval literature (deriving, I think, from Celtic mythology). Encounters with fairies frequently take place by rivers or lakes. - the mysterious potential of what may lie beyond the horizon over the sea, e.g. the opening of Beowulf, where Scyld Scefing both appears from the sea as a child and is launched out to sea in a ship after his death. This must have been particularly powerful before it turned out there was only America over there - it's interesting to compare Narnia's "Emperor over the sea" (presumably God) and the fact that Aslan's country is reached by sailing to the end of the sea... __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

10-27-2006, 12:55 PM	#3
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	I know water is a powerful symbol in many cultures and religions. In the minds of many belief systems it's considered one of the purest substances. Certainly in more shamanistic societies water is almost always revered. That plus the very real fact that water sustains life makes it a very powerful symbol for goodness. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

10-27-2006, 05:21 PM	#4
ecthelion Enting Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5 Posts: 91	I still think JRR is unique in his regrd for water, especially by giving it a power for good: like the cleaning of isengard, and by all that regards ents. also the ringwraiths afraid to cross rivers, and complete lack of water in mordor. it is different from other mithology where water is associated in general with fairies, good bad and neutral. Tolkien only has good water... Also usually in literature rain is associated with a blue mood. With Tolkien rain is always pleasant (of what I remember). Water has a bad context when associated with frost (snow on caradharas) or heat (steams of isengard). As for CS lewis and Tolkien, they had alota influence over each other (of course mostly CSL copied from JRR, this is probably one of these cases ) __________________ The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean?

10-27-2006, 05:58 PM	#5
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	In Christianity water was a definite symbolic element used for cleansing. People are baptized in water, and given the desert origin of most major world religions it's not surprising to see that this concept is widely shared. It's not too far a stretch for Tolkien to take his own personal beliefs and somehow (whether consciously or not) transmit them into his mythology for Middle Earth. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

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