Entmoot
  


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > The Silmarillion
Reload this Page Fingon's Nirnaeth Arnoediad
FAQ Members List Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-02-2003, 09:03 PM   #1
Maedhros
The Tall
 
Maedhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
Fingon's Nirnaeth Arnoediad
From the Published Silmarillion: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Quote:
In those days Maedhros son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make new league and common council; and he began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of Maedhros.
Fingon, being the High King of the Noldor, to me it seems as the logical person to begin drawing this Union of Elves against Morgoth. He could have probably have gathered more people against Melkor. I wonder why he didn't involved himself more and sent messangers to Orodreth to assail Morgoth.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
Maedhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2003, 09:18 PM   #2
Sister Golden Hair
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator
 
Sister Golden Hair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
Re: Fingon's Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
From the Published Silmarillion: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

Fingon, being the High King of the Noldor, to me it seems as the logical person to begin drawing this Union of Elves against Morgoth. He could have probably have gathered more people against Melkor. I wonder why he didn't involved himself more and sent messangers to Orodreth to assail Morgoth.
I think at that time Nargothrond had changed its defensive policy. After Finrod's death and the exile of the sons of Feanor from that realm, Orodreth developed a policy of stealth and secrecy. Not until the coming of Turin did that change, although he did send a small company to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad with Gwindor as their leader.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey
Travel and Tourism Guide
Sister Golden Hair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2003, 10:23 PM   #3
Maedhros
The Tall
 
Maedhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
This is what i don't understand. If I'm Orodreth, then why would you go out and try to fight Morgoth, with only the forces of Nargothrond, knowing that the combined armies of the Eldar (Fingon, Maedhros, etc) failed in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad? It doesn't make any sense.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
Maedhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2003, 10:55 PM   #4
Sister Golden Hair
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator
 
Sister Golden Hair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
This is what i don't understand. If I'm Orodreth, then why would you go out and try to fight Morgoth, with only the forces of Nargothrond, knowing that the combined armies of the Eldar (Fingon, Maedhros, etc) failed in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad? It doesn't make any sense.
So You're actually asking about the Battle of Tumhalad? I have always found Orodreth to be somewhat weak of will, and IMO that probably would not have happened but for Turin who was in high favor with the king and managed it seems to call the shots.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey
Travel and Tourism Guide
Sister Golden Hair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2003, 10:58 PM   #5
The Lady of Ithilien
Elven Warrior
 
The Lady of Ithilien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
Quote:
Fingon, being the High King of the Noldor, to me it seems as the logical person to begin drawing this Union of Elves against Morgoth. He could have probably have gathered more people against Melkor. I wonder why he didn't involved himself more and sent messangers to Orodreth to assail Morgoth.
But Maedhros had a personal grudge against Morgoth because of his imprisonment and torture and so was very aggressive. For this reason, too, he had located himself in a position where Morgoth would likely attack (I forget the exact quote and, unfortunately, the book isn't present right now).

Perhaps Fingon didn't send messengers to Orodreth because of the trouble the two sons of Feanor had caused in Nargothrond, and the great fear one of them, Curufin, I think, had instilled into the Elves there who, as Sister Golden Hair points out, changed their tactics and never came out to war openly again until Turin's time (when it proved disastrous).
__________________
Quote:
Thus one should consider: "Being angry with another person, what can you do to him? Can you destroy his virtue and his other good qualities? Have you not come to your present state by your own actions, and will also go hence according to your own actions? Anger towards another is just as if someone wishing to hit another person takes hold of glowing coals, or a heated iron-rod, or of excrement. And, in the same way, if the other person is angry with you, what can he do to you? Can he destroy your virtue and your other good qualities? He too has come to his present state by his own actions and will go hence according to his own actions. Like an unaccepted gift or like a handful of dirt thrown against the wind, his anger will fall back on his own head."
Buddha
Last edited by The Lady of Ithilien : 01-02-2003 at 11:00 PM.
The Lady of Ithilien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2003, 10:58 PM   #6
Finmandos12
Elven Warrior
 
Finmandos12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa
Posts: 327
I always found Orodreth to be weak as well. Taking the advice of that fool Turin.... I'll never understand that either.
__________________
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Finmandos12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2003, 11:08 PM   #7
Sister Golden Hair
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator
 
Sister Golden Hair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
It's interesting that Finrod knew long before his death that his kingdom was facing this doom after his death. Very insightful fellow.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey
Travel and Tourism Guide
Sister Golden Hair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2003, 11:16 AM   #8
Maedhros
The Tall
 
Maedhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
Quote:
But Maedhros had a personal grudge against Morgoth because of his imprisonment and torture and so was very aggressive. For this reason, too, he had located himself in a position where Morgoth would likely attack (I forget the exact quote and, unfortunately, the book isn't present right now).
Well, the great Maedhros wouldn't hide himself. If there was a battle, he would be in the very center of it.
Quote:
Perhaps Fingon didn't send messengers to Orodreth because of the trouble the two sons of Feanor had caused in Nargothrond, and the great fear one of them, Curufin, I think, had instilled into the Elves there who, as Sister Golden Hair points out, changed their tactics and never came out to war openly again until Turin's time (when it proved disastrous).
But Fingon as the High King of the Ñoldor, had the utmost responsability against the fight against Morgoth, didn't he?
Quote:
So You're actually asking about the Battle of Tumhalad? I have always found Orodreth to be somewhat weak of will, and IMO that probably would not have happened but for Turin who was in high favor with the king and managed it seems to call the shots.
No, I'm asking about common sense. If you are against going to open war against Morgoth alongside with the rest of the Ñoldor, yet you go with your own realm against him? (Granted it was not a direct open war)
Quote:
[size]It's interesting that Finrod knew long before his death that his kingdom was facing this doom after his death. Very insightful fellow.[/size]
Wasn't it just a matter of time that the Elf Kingdoms were destined to perish?
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
Maedhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2003, 12:27 PM   #9
Sister Golden Hair
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator
 
Sister Golden Hair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros Well, the great Maedhros wouldn't hide himself. If there was a battle, he would be in the very center of it.
Agreed, and after the deeds of Beren and Luthien, Maedhros saw that Morgoth was not unassailable. The Union of Maedhros came from counsels that I'm sure Fingon was an active participant and was more then willing to aid his best friend in his effort to unite the Eldar and attempt to assail Morgoth.

Quote:
But Fingon as the High King of the Ñoldor, had the utmost responsability against the fight against Morgoth, didn't he?
Well, perhaps, but I don't think that Fingon was any less active in forming this alliance or in the assault than Meadhros. I think it was Maedhros' idea, and it became a combined effort among the Noldor.

Quote:
No, I'm asking about common sense. If you are against going to open war against Morgoth alongside with the rest of the Ñoldor, yet you go with your own realm against him?
From the Silmarillion. Hoghton Mifflin edition. 1977. Chapter 20
Quote:
Yet the oath of Feanor and the evil deeds that it had wrought did injury to the design of Maedhros, and he had less aid then should have been. Orodreth would not march forth at the word of any son of Feanor, because of the deeds of Celegorm and Curufin; and the Elves of Nargothrond trusted still to defend their hidden stronghold by secrecy and stealth. Thence came only a small company, following Gwindor son of Guilin, a very valiant prince, and against the will of Orodreth he went to the northern war, because he grieved for the loss of Gelmir his brother in the Dagor Bragollach. They took the badge of the House of Fingolfin, and marched beneath the banners of Fingon; and they came never back, save one.
Quote:
Wasn't it just a matter of time that the Elf Kingdoms were destined to perish?
Yes, but Finrod didn't know that until he had the forsight when speaking to Galadriel, and then he knew that Nargothrond would fall.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey
Travel and Tourism Guide
Sister Golden Hair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2003, 08:22 PM   #10
The Lady of Ithilien
Elven Warrior
 
The Lady of Ithilien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
Quote:
But Fingon as the High King of the Ñoldor, had the utmost responsability against the fight against Morgoth, didn't he?
What Sister Golden Hair said . I'd only add that, besides their being best friends, it could be that there was a more egalitarian and free-wheeling spirit among the leaders of the Noldor than we would consider usual in these legalistic and system-based days, due either to the general Elvish way or specific to this group because the sons of Feanor could, to put it mildly, be a tad touchy at times. Maedhros was pretty cool, but Fingon knew that he also owed allegiance to all of his brothers.

Then again, perhaps it was the curse at work again, as they were doomed to failure. Perhaps had it been the Union of Fingon, while I don't think they could have ever defeated a Vala, they might have succeeded far enough to forever limit Morgoth's expansion. My Silmarillion isn't handy to look for any text in support of this, though.

However that was, this underlying sense of responsibility perhaps was the motivation that led Fingon later to challenge Morgoth to single combat, futile though he knew it would be.
__________________
Quote:
Thus one should consider: "Being angry with another person, what can you do to him? Can you destroy his virtue and his other good qualities? Have you not come to your present state by your own actions, and will also go hence according to your own actions? Anger towards another is just as if someone wishing to hit another person takes hold of glowing coals, or a heated iron-rod, or of excrement. And, in the same way, if the other person is angry with you, what can he do to you? Can he destroy your virtue and your other good qualities? He too has come to his present state by his own actions and will go hence according to his own actions. Like an unaccepted gift or like a handful of dirt thrown against the wind, his anger will fall back on his own head."
Buddha
The Lady of Ithilien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2003, 08:25 PM   #11
Falagar
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
 
Falagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
Quote:
However that was, this underlying sense of responsibility perhaps was the motivation that led Fingon later to challenge Morgoth to single combat, futile though he knew it would be.
Wasn't that Fingolfin?
__________________
Fëanor - Innocence incarnated
Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.
Falagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2003, 09:36 PM   #12
The Lady of Ithilien
Elven Warrior
 
The Lady of Ithilien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
Oh, you're right, it was (blush). Time for remedial Silmarillion 101. Thanks!
__________________
Quote:
Thus one should consider: "Being angry with another person, what can you do to him? Can you destroy his virtue and his other good qualities? Have you not come to your present state by your own actions, and will also go hence according to your own actions? Anger towards another is just as if someone wishing to hit another person takes hold of glowing coals, or a heated iron-rod, or of excrement. And, in the same way, if the other person is angry with you, what can he do to you? Can he destroy your virtue and your other good qualities? He too has come to his present state by his own actions and will go hence according to his own actions. Like an unaccepted gift or like a handful of dirt thrown against the wind, his anger will fall back on his own head."
Buddha
The Lady of Ithilien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2003, 11:54 PM   #13
Halbarad of the North
Sapling
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 8
It just seems that the only leader who foresaw that Morgoth would destroy them one by one if they did not unite and formed the union
Halbarad of the North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2003, 06:00 PM   #14
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
Re: Fingon's Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
From the Published Silmarillion: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Fingon, being the High King of the Noldor, to me it seems as the logical person to begin drawing this Union of Elves against Morgoth. He could have probably have gathered more people against Melkor. I wonder why he didn't involved himself more and sent messangers to Orodreth to assail Morgoth.
The elves were split in two with limited communication. Maedhros had access to some numbers of allies in the Dwarves wand the Men of Nor and Ulfang, as well as dwelling in greener lands than Fingon in Hithlum. It is likely that Maedhros could bring larger numbers to bear, but of lower quality than Fingon.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola
Older, richer, and wiser than you
"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2003, 09:03 PM   #15
Rían
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Rían's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
Quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
Oh, you're right, it was (blush). Time for remedial Silmarillion 101. Thanks!
LOL! Now there's one remedial class I wouldn't mind taking!
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?*

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Rían is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »


Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts
vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I heard Gil Galad isn't Fingon's son? Captain Stern The Silmarillion 9 07-27-2001 11:46 PM
Nirnaeth Arnoediad: How bad was it? easterlinge The Silmarillion 4 07-14-2001 01:42 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:49 PM.

Contact Us - The Tolkien Trail - Archive - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail