Translations of names

[Artanis]

In the Norwegian translation of LoTR, all names are 'translated' as well. Examples: Gandalf -> Gandalv, Shelob -> Hutula, Hobbiton -> Hobsyssel, Bree -> Bri. It seems pretty pointless to me, and I find it annoying.

However, some guy in another forum said Tolkien wanted the names to be translated. But he couldn't come up with any arguments in favour of his view. Do any of you know whether he's right/wrong?

If you've read LoTR in other languages, are the names translated there?

[Ñólendil]

The Tolkien Letters yields some good answers. In letter # 190 Tolkien was responding to the Foreign Rights Department of Allen & Unwin concerning a list of Dutch versions of place-names in the Lord of the Rings made by the translator:

... In principle I object as strongly as is possible to the 'translation' of the nomenclature at all (even by a competent person). I wonder why a translator should think himself called on or entitled to any such thing. That this is an 'imaginary' world does not give him any right to remodel it according to his fancy, even if he could in a few months create a new coherent structure which it took me years to work out.

I presume that if I had presented the Hobbits as speaking Italian, Russian, Chinese, or what you will, he would have left the names alone. Or, If I had pretended that ' the Shire' was some fictitious Loamshire of actual England. Yet actually in an imaginary country and period, as this one, coherently made, the nomenclature is a more important element than in an 'historical' novel. But, of course, if we drop the 'fiction' of long ago, 'The Shire' is based on rural England and not any other country in the world -- least perhaps of any in Europe on Holland, which is topographically wholly dissimilar. (In fact so different is it, that in spite of the affinity of its language, and in many respects of its idiom, which should ease some part of the translator's labour, its toponymy is specially unsuitable for the purpose.) The topoonymy of The Shire, to take the first list, is a 'parody' of that of rurual England, in much the same sense as are its inhabitants: they go together and are meant to. After all the book is English, and by an Englishman, and presumably even those who wish its narrative and dialogue turned into an idiom that they understand, will not ask of a translator that he should deliberately attempt to destroy the local colour. I do not ask that of a translator, though I might be glad of glossary where (seldom) the meaning of the place-name is essential. I would not wish, in a book startin from an imaginary mirror of Holland, to meet Hedge, Duke'shbush, Eaglehome, or Applethorn even if these were 'translations' of 'sGravenHage, Hertogenbosch, Arnhem, or Apeldoorn.! These translations are not English, they are just homeless. ... May I say now at once that I wiull not tolerate any similar tinkering with the personal nomenclature. Nor with the name/word Hobbit. I will not have any more Hompen (in which I was not consulted), nor any Hobbel or what not. Elves, Dwarfs/ves, Trolls, yes: they are mere modern equivalents of th ecorrect terms. But hobbit (and orc) are of that world, and they must stay, whether they sound Dutch or not. ...

So you can see he didn't like tampering with names.

[Artanis]

Ah, good old JRRT.
Bah, bad translator.

And I'll knock the other guy. Thanx.

[Findegil]

This isn't the complet answer (sorry Ñólendil). In the end tolkien made even a list of names were he marked which he would wish to be translated and in which way and which names the translator should let alone.
It was posthumesly published (but I cna't remeber were) and the Editor wrote about it, that it was written after the Dutch and Swedish version of The Lord of Rings were pudlished. It is especial made for a translation to German, but that does not infact matter in this case.
It is named Guid to the Names in The Lord of the Rings.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Ñólendil]

Always nice to have you around and about, Findegil

[Starr Polish]

In the Spanish version of the hobbit:
Baggins = Bolsin (well, that's the phonetic equivalent)
Took = Tuk
And the dwarves poems and such were changed.

[Arkmam]

In Sweden:

Bree - Bri
Baggins - Bagger
Hobbiton - Hobsala
The Shire - Fylke
Rosie Cotton - Rosa Kattun
Gamgee - Gamgi
Hobbit - Hob



I prefer reading in english, because the swedish language really sucks in perilous or actionfilled moments.

[Artanis]

Welcome to the moot, my good neighbour Arkmam!

Yes, books should always be read in the author's original language, if possible.

[Earniel]

In Dutch:

Gollum:Gollem
Bree: Breeg
Baggins: Ballings
Gamgee: Gewissies
Hobbiton: Hobbitstee
The Shire: de Gouw
Rosie Cotton: Roosje Katoen
Pippin Took: Pepijn Toek
Merry Brandybuck: Merijn Brandebok

It was kind of confusing reading first the Dutch and then the English edition. But I agree Artanis, books should be read in author's original language as much as possible. Still, I think the Dutch translations are pretty acceptable and I understand why they did it. Most of the names are translated litterally. I only wonder why they had to translate Baggins. Ballings doesn't sound any more like an ordinary Dutch name than Baggins does and it confused me at first because 'balling' is the Dutch word for an exile.

[RosieCotton]

Are there anymore out there? These are fascinating!

[Artanis]

OK, here's more from Norway:

Baggins - Lommelun
Samwise Gamgee - Samvis Gamgod
Took - Tok
Meriadoc (Merry) - Muntiadok (Munti)
Brandybuck - Brennibukk
Rosie Cotton - Rosi Småtun
Maggot - Åmeng
Strider - Vidvandre
Shadowfax - Skuggfaks
Goldberry - Marigull
Fatty Bolger - Bolla Buttel
Barliman Butterbur - Byggelmann Balderbrå

Isengard - Jarnagard
Shire - Hobsyssel
Brandywine - Brennvina
Rivendell - Kløvendal
Bag End - Lommekroken
Mirkwood - Myrkskog

... and there is more.

[Rána Eressëa]

I think names of people and places should remain the same. It's just annoying to change those.

[Earniel]

Oh I forgot:

Mirkwood: Demsterwold

That was one of the best translations I thought. It fits so good. I even tend to prefer it over Mirkwood. *ducks as assorted mooters start throwing things*

[RosieCotton]

GASP
That's okay....Demsterwold does have a certain ring to it. My personal favorite is Byggelmann Balderbrå....though Shadowfax as Skuggfaks is rather interesting.