Noldorin Christianity

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

I doubt anyone here has heard of this. Noldorin Christianity started back in the 1980s and is the only religion based on the works of Tolkien. It actually references the Silmarillion as a "testament" and regards each story as a moral or philosophical lesson. I believe it started in Finland, and it is becoming increasingly common in other parts of Europe and the US. If anybody is interested in learning more, please let me know! I've been involved since I was 13 and would like to spread awareness.

[Lotesse]

Are you serious?! *sigh* That's all we need - more sub-sect christian off-shoots from fans of genius literature... Yikes. I mean - YIKES, man. Are you serious?? And if so, what is it all about? It's a Finnish thing, then? A Scandinavian subculture thing? wtf...

[OldHippie]

http://209.85.48.9/836/119/emo/headscratch.gif

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Noldorin Christianity is only related to Christianity by Tolkien's influence from Roman Catholicism and is certainly not an off-shoot. While Tolkien may have used Catholicism for a starting point in much of his writing, he modified it heavily when he sculpted the Elves' creation myth. Noldorin Christianity is only what official documents have been calling it in Finland, and I'm not entirely sure why.

It is based on the concept that one becomes closer to God (Eru, if you want) through the act of creation. This could be the creation of art, of ideas, of children, etc...but, of course, one must come to recognize that one cannot create anything to claim, because it's only by the grace of Eru that it came to be. That, in my opinion, is the central concept and greatest lesson, though if you asked someone else they might give you a different answer...but that's religion for you.

I believe that it has gained the suffix "Christianity" because the core values are much the same. However, I find that the stories of The Silmarillion distinguish right from wrong in a much more abstract manner than the Bible or the Qu'ran. For instance, the Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" but the Silmarillion seeks to address when it is necessary to kill, and when it is truly a sin. The Bible tells us "Honour Thy Father and Thy Mother," but the story of the Feanorians tells us that, while we must love our parents, it is often necessary to disagree with them and even disobey them. The list goes on, of course, but this dynamic is the reason I chose this religion. I've read the Bible four times now, cover to cover, and I have the utmost respect and profound appreciation for its message and its importance. I've also read the Qu'ran, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Torah, and other religious texts, but, in the end, I had to embrace what touched me most deeply.

Also, I really do resent comparison to other religions formed from great works of literature, especially Scientology. While it is true that both were based on recent books, they otherwise have almost nothing to do with one another. One can't judge a religion by how it developed, but rather ought to look at its values and beliefs for what they are.

Let's remember that quite a few religions were based on books which some, to this day, consider to be fiction, and that those book were, at one time, also very recent. While it is a testament to a work's longevity, the age of the work does not dictate how profound its message is.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Are you serious?! *sigh* That's all we need - more sub-sect christian off-shoots from fans of genius literature... Yikes. I mean - YIKES, man. Are you serious?? And if so, what is it all about? It's a Finnish thing, then? A Scandinavian subculture thing? wtf...

I may have misunderstood (we all know there is a language barrier here, I think) but do you mean to say that what others choose believe, even if it is an "off-shoot" of Christianity, is somehow an affront to Christians? I personally don't see how it would affect them. We certainly didn't mean to offend anyone by believing in this, and discrimination and prejudice against those who are different from us is certainly (and very clearly) discouraged by the text.

There are, by the way, more Noldorin Christians in the UK and North America than in Finland. While some believe the movement started here, it is most definitely not a quirk or blemish on modern Finnish culture. We do, however, regard ourselves to be more progressive and liberal than many other countries while maintaining our traditions and our culture.

(Please note that I hope not to offend anyone personally, but rather to spark an intelligent and mature debate about the impact of Tolkien's works on the modern world.)

[OldHippie]

Um, Tolkien's books are works of fiction brought to light to be bed time stories for his children. There's no great underlying messages in them unless you want to dig and find somthing you want to find. I think your taking this a bit to the extreme.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

The Silmarillion contains very few "bedtime stories." It's not The Hobbit, by any means. The Silmarillion was a product of Tolkien's experiances during WWI. Any biography will tell you that notes for some of the earliest stories were jotted down in trenches. Please consider that we don't believe in hobbits or think that we're Elves or any nonsense such as that, but I know I'm not the only person that sees The Silmarillion as a far deeper and more spiritual work than most. One does not have to dig very deep at all, but merely pay attention, to see that it expresses more than a one-dimensional story.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by NelyafinweMaitimo

Noldorin Christianity is only related to Christianity by Tolkien's influence from Roman Catholicism and is certainly not an off-shoot. While Tolkien may have used Catholicism for a starting point in much of his writing, he modified it heavily when he sculpted the Elves' creation myth. Noldorin Christianity is only what official documents have been calling it in Finland, and I'm not entirely sure why.

It is based on the concept that one becomes closer to God (Eru, if you want) through the act of creation. This could be the creation of art, of ideas, of children, etc...but, of course, one must come to recognize that one cannot create anything to claim, because it's only by the grace of Eru that it came to be. That, in my opinion, is the central concept and greatest lesson, though if you asked someone else they might give you a different answer...but that's religion for you.

This is cool-sounding, but I really, really hve a problem with it being dubbed "chiristianity," BECAUSE THERE IS NO cHRIST HERE - NO jESUS, NO hEBREW gOD, SO WHY CALL IT A FORM OF cHRISTIANIty - sorry, dumb caps-lock accident - anyway, so why call it Christianity - it has nothing to do with Christ and Jesus and God, it's - I mean, call it Eruism or something, I dunno.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

I was hoping someone would say that! That's the very problem I have with it. Of course, I didn't pick the name, but in my opinion it's more closely related to Judaism. However, the real justification I can see is that most people who advocate Noldorin *Christianity* do so because they simultaneously follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. However, not all of us do, so I support a more general name for the group that would not define us so poorly (and define Christianity so poorly). I have a problem with the name. The only alternative I've heard so far is Tolkienism, and I'm not sure if a devout Roman Catholic would want his name pasted to a religion that so many people consider polytheistic, even if he did create the premise.

[Kevin McIntyre]

It doesn't bother me if people want to use Professor Tolkien's mythology as a tool for constructing a moral life. Tolkien was a deep theological thinker and morality is a cornerstone of all his fiction. My issue is proselytizing. When one gains enlightenment (or whatever term works for you) through unique experience they become convinced they have the answer for everyone else. I am sure Tolkien has influenced me in many ways (my love of nature comes to mind, the need for sacrifice perhaps) but I do not think everyone should read Tolkien in the effort to convince them that my perspective is correct (which I doubt it is .. who the hell am I anyway).

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

It's not my intention to convert anyone, and I'm probably just as right or wrong as anyone else who ever believed something. I'm not saying "You ought to read The Silmarillion religiously, like me!" I'm merely asking your opinion or your comments on the fact that many people now do.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

This is cool-sounding, but I really, really hve a problem with it being dubbed "chiristianity," BECAUSE THERE IS NO cHRIST HERE - NO jESUS, NO hEBREW gOD, SO WHY CALL IT A FORM OF cHRISTIANIty - sorry, dumb caps-lock accident - anyway, so why call it Christianity - it has nothing to do with Christ and Jesus and God, it's - I mean, call it Eruism or something, I dunno.

Lotesse, I am impressed! For all our disagreements over the time here at Entmoot, I must say that you pose THE essential differentiation betwixt pseudoChristianity and THE REAL THING @.

Ethical systems per se are not Christian or even religious.

Christians make very explicit claims about the person of Jesus of Nazareth and His relation to God and humanity.

Ethical persons make decisions based on differingly valued ethical systems. For instance, Sauron was clearly a Nietzschian ethicist. Saruman was a Machiavellian. Frodo seems to have an implicitly Christian ethics.

Those would be good discussion points but hardly the basis for a religion and certainly not a Christian off-shoot.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Did some research last night. Apparently I'm not the only one who hates the name. The new name that the would replace "Noldorin Christianity" on all gov/legal documents would be "Eruhinism," which is what we've been using all along, thank you kindly. I like that much better.

[Mark of Cenla]

Just when I think I have heard it all...





Hey, believe what you want to believe. It's OK with me. Peace.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Peace.

That's the very best philosophy.

[Nautipus]

This thread's fun and friendly.

I do have to ask though, and this also is not meant to offend or anything, I'm just curious, are you basing your religious point of view(ie, creatoin, God, moral code, etc.) off of a work of fiction? What's the end-game here? Heaven, Hell, where are Eruhinists off to? Seriously. Just curious, want more info.

[Tuinor]

I have a thing or two to say, my long named friend, about all this.

First of all, and you may possibly know this, the idea that being creative brings someone closer to God was an essential idea to Tolkien (and to many other Christians, I believe). He believed that we are called to be Sub-creators in the image of the one true Creator that Christianity worships (or whatever you want to say).

I do not think, however, that this makes his works by any means holy. Any story can present a moral or teach a lesson. One of the focuses of a certain story I'm writing right now is the evil nature of deciet. But I wouldn't want anyone thinking that it is holy or a testament or anything. I simply am trying to get one of my ideas across.

Secondly (and this kind of follows where Nautipus is heading), I simply cannot understand how one could embrace the worship of a god (Eru) or multiple gods (the Ainur) that the person who wrote of them admits to their not existing. I can see how there may be a way or two around that, but, seriously!

It would be like Muhamed coming out to his followers and saying, "Yo, all that cool stuff I wrote, it came off the top of my head. Pretty neat, huh?" And then they'd continued to believe in it anyways. That's insanity!

Tolkien said that he desired to write Faerie Stories. They are meant to touch us, as you have said of yourself, but they are not meant to be viewed as real. He said that they are meant to remove the reader (mentally) from his or her reality, and place them in a Faerie reality (once again, mentally) from which they could view the real world with a different perspective and thus come out with a new view on things around us.

In metaphoric terms, his stories are like wooden panels that cover the sides of a house. They're good for keeping out the wind and the rain, but they're not something to build a foundation from.

In other ways they're like the tiny mirrors that line the inside of a flashlight. They make it so many times brighter, but they themselves don't produce the light. They simply magnify it.

I do agree with Mark of Cenla, though. Peace! I want to discuss open thoughts as much as you. However, you'll find that I won't be easily moved from my convictions. I hope that none of this results in hostilities between any of us, and I look forward to your resonse.

[Nautipus]

I think that I agree with just about everything you said Tuinor, but we think along the same lines. Now, my friend with the verbally chalanging name(still really cool though!), dont think that we're trying to gang up on you, we just want to talk out the meaning and philosophy surrounding your religion's conception. At least that's what I want.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Interesting thread/idea. I agree with the people who disagree with calling it 'Christianity'. And I'd like to point out that a system of beliefs, no matter what book it is based on, fiction or nonfiction, does not necessarily bring one closer to one's creator.

Personally (and I mean no offense to the 'Noldorin "Christians"' by this), I think Tolkien would be appalled if he knew that people were making a religion out of his fantasy world and the mythology he created. He certainly knew that he himself came up with his own stories--unlike other religions, this one has the distinction of being the only on based on the works of an author who never claimed to be divinely inspired or commanded to write said works. Also, although the books he wrote offer pointers on basic morality, I don't believe Tolkien ever addresses the issue of contact with a creator--he never spells out a way by which a living being may 'get in touch' with their creator--another distinction between this and other religions. I think that there are, as I have said, pointers, and even direct statements on morality and moral standards, as well as the idea of a creator, within Tolkien's works. But I think the idea of creating a religion around such books completely preposterous and absurd, and I think Tolkien would have thought the same.

Again, no offense. Truth is truth, no matter what I think.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

I haven't been on for a while, and there are many good points here that I would like to be able to discuss in greater detail, but I've been doing a lot of travelling - unfortunately, my father had a heart attack (he'll be fine, though).

What I do wish to say is that I believe that we cannot deny our faith, no matter what it is founded on. One cannot force oneself to believe the teachings of Christ or Muhammad. Rather, I believe that one must follow whatever path drives them to live well and passionately.

Please remember that Eruhinism also is founded on the mythology of Finland, which was the "religion" of the natives of this area for thousands of years. That aspect is no different from a Guatemalan who believes in Quetzalcoatl, a Celt who believes in Danu and the Tuatha Dé Danann, or an Israelite who believes in Jesus.

Consider the Hindu proverb: "It is a fool who believes he can walk a path that does not lead to God."