When the ship got there............

[Taniquetil]

Random observations from the Holy mountain #3:

Did Tolkien write anywhere about what happened when the Ship of the Ringbearers reached Valinor? Seriously! think about it!


Galadriel hadn't seen her father Finarfin for 7,052 years! And all of her brothers died at different points during the first age, so she hadn't seen them for over 6,000 years!

And poor Elrond, now 6,520 years old if my calculations are correct, had never met his parents (within memory, unless elves reach sapience at 2) before this!


Not to mention that Frodo and Bilbo were the first hobbits, the first mortals since the disobedient Numenoreans ,and the first PEACEFUL mortals since Tuor, to come to Valinor. And Gandalf was the only one of the five Ishtari to return!

This is some amazing stuff!

[EllethValatari]

If only I was the expert that knew. Great question though! Will be checking back constantly for an answer.

If the Professor didn't record any of the events after the ship set sail, maybe we could meet with Chris and see if he's encountered anything.

[Alcuin]

No expert, but…

I don’t think they went to Valinor. I think they went to Tol Eressëa (also called “The Lonely Isle�), the island just off the coast of Valinor in the Bay of Eldamar. Depending upon which version of the telling you prefer, the returning Noldor might have remained there. (See Letter 131.) It is possible that many of the first Númenórean kings (or crown princes) might have been permitted a single visit – again, depending upon which version of the story you prefer.

There was an eastward-looking port there, Avallónë, whose towers far-sighted Dúnedain could glimpse from the peak of Meneltarma (and possibly from Andúnië – again, depending upon which telling you rely upon) in Númenor. In its heyday, the Eldar sailed frequently from Avallónë to Andúnië and Eldalondë in Númenor to visit the Dúnedain.

Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli spent the rest of their lives in Tol Eressëa. Tolkien explicitly says that Frodo died in Tol Eressëa in Letter 246, so we can be certain that Bilbo and Sam (who joined Frodo much later after his wife Rose died) did, too, and Gimli as well. If Elendil’s father Amandil, the last Lord of Andúnië, made it to Tol Eressëa to warn the Valar about Ar-Pharazôn’s impending Sauron-inspired attack on Valinor, as seems likely, he probably died there, too.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Taniquetil

And poor Elrond, now 6,520 years old if my calculations are correct, had never met his parents (within memory, unless elves reach sapience at 2) before this!

They do, actually.

"The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies."
Laws and Customs of the Eldar, History of Middle-Earth: Morgoth's Ring

But it's still sad that he should lose his parents so early.

[Galin]

In letter 325 (1971) Tolkien writes that Frodo and other mortals 'could only dwell in Aman for limited time -- whether brief or long.' In texts written before this letter Aman did not include Eressea, but at the beginning of this letter Tolkien writes: 'The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman -- the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea, an island assigned to the Eldar -- set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage,...'

Is Tolkien defining Aman here? and isn't Eressea at least part of the Undying Lands and the 'West', also removed from the Circles of the World? But even if so, what does 'assigned to the Eldar' mean? The Sindar are certainly Eldar: are they not allowed to pass to Eldamar and meet sundered Telerin kin for example -- or is this just a late 'loose' description maybe, and shouldn't be examined so closely.

In the famed letter to Waldman (131) Tolkien noted that the Exiles were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again -- hmm, does that mean they could still visit? and if so for how long (especially considering these are Elves here). Granted this might be considered some level of 'punishment', I admit. Or did JRRT 'really mean' simply that the Noldor should not return at all to Aman? But either way, does this mean that even Galadriel for instance, after passing her test, was confined in some measure to Eressea -- where the Sindar, even Silvan Elves, could pass to Aman.

And why can't Frodo at least visit Aman? Or do I just ask too many questions here


Letter 131 appears to be echoed in Galadriel's line in The Elessar where she asks why she should be content with an Isle in the Sea instead of Aman; but this was Tolkien's earlier idea:

'And when they came into the West the Gnomes for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed; and there the Gnomes were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.'

JRRT, Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road

That's the unedited version of Quenta Silmarillion, and as Tolkien never truly revised the end of his Silmarillion (aside from some cursory emendations), he never actually -- physically at least -- revised this notion in this account. In the 1977 Silmarillion, there the: 'Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east, whence they might come even to Valinor.'

So Christopher Tolkien's decision here appears to echo at least the Silmarillion as it still stood. I don't know. maybe Tolkien later thought that this was too easy an ending and that the surviving Noldor should pay some price, but certainly the Sindar were not part of the Rebellion in any case.


So far, the Quenta Silmarillion idea seems 'easier' to me.

Though opinions can change

[Alcuin]

Tol Eressëa was certainly part of the Undying West. The Númenóreans were forbidden to sail there, though perhaps the crown princes were permitted a short visit during the first half of the Second Age, depending upon which telling of the story we follow. Besides, it was taken up from the Circles of the World along with Valinor and Eldamar, making it a place that could not be reached by mortals after the Downfall of Númenor. So yes, I think Tolkien is saying that Tol Eressëa is part of Aman, in the same sense that Long Island or Newfoundland are part of North America, or Great Britain and Ireland are part of Europe.

On the other hand, the Cottage of Lost Play sounds a lot like a purgatory, doesn’t it?

[Galin]

Yes, my second question, though in question form, should have been more along the lines of: Is Tolkien defining Aman here? 'because' (I think it's generally mutually agreed upon that) Tol Eressea is part of the Undying Lands and also Removed for the Circles of the World. In other words I didn't think anyone would disagree with that much.

If Eressea could arguably be considered part of Aman -- in contrast to earlier text in which the Isle is distinct from 'Aman' -- maybe Tolkien has re-defined the term by this late date, or at least for this letter! And if so, he seemingly notes that Frodo could dwell in Aman -- at least appearing to allow more than Eressea.


But this letter aside: in general I'm not sure why Frodo 'should' necessarily be restricted from 'Aman proper' let's say: he already had special status, and Tolkien's text on Aman (Morgoth's Ring) explains that mortals did not actually age faster there (at least before the removal of the lands).

[Alcuin]

I think there must some sort of distinction between the conditions of Eldamar the [i]coastlands of Valinor east of the Pelóri, and the interior of Valinor, because Tolkien made a comment that the Elves needed the air of the outside world or some such. Silmarillion, “Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor”,

…all those of elven-race … must breathe at times the outer air and the wind that comes over the sea from the lands of their birth…

Had the Númenórean assault upon Valinor been successful, the invaders would have been subjected to strange outcomes. They’d have gone mad either because their fëar (souls) could not escape their hröar (bodies); or because their fëar would escape, and their mindless hröar wandered about as monsters; all this comes directly from Tolkien. (Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, X, “Aman and Mortal Men”)

That doesn’t mean that Men could not visit Eldamar, although there is no record of that for anyone save Eärendil and Elwing. (It seems that the Smith of Wootton Major also visited Eldamar, and that he even travelled briefly into the interior of Valinor; but this tale might be separate from the general Legendarium.)

So yes, I think there is a difference between the island of Tol Eressëa, Eldamar along the coast of Valinor, and the interior of Valinor west of the Mountains of Aman (Pelóri). All of them are part of Aman, the Uttermost West. The differences could be a matter of intensity, an effect of moving further and further from Middle-earth, original home of both Elves and Men.

[Galin]

I think there must some sort of distinction between the conditions of Eldamar the coastlands of Valinor east of the Pelóri, and the interior of Valinor, because Tolkien made a comment that the Elves needed the air of the outside world or some such. Silmarillion, "Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor" '…all those of elven-race … must breathe at times the outer air and the wind that comes over the sea from the lands of their birth…'

That's a good point, but also the context of this citation concerns whether or not to close the gap in the mountains -- that is, the gap wasn't closed because the Elves (including the Vanyar obviously) at times must breath this air and so on.

So, as I interpret the matter anyway, the Vanyar who had already passed through the gap and dwelt beyond must breath this air at times, thus the gap was left open -- essentially allowing this air in, in enough measure.

Had the Númenórean assault upon Valinor been successful, the invaders would have been subjected to strange outcomes. They'd have gone mad either because their fëar (souls) could not escape their hröar (bodies); or because their fëar would escape, and their mindless hröar wandered about as monsters; all this comes directly from Tolkien. (Morgoth’s Ring, "Myths Transformed", X, "Aman and Mortal Men")

Yes it does come from that text, but for those who don't have it I'll add that this concerns the whole life of a man, as if mortals were allowed to live regular lives in Aman. Mortals will not age 'faster' (although they will seem to be fleeting things compared to the world around them), but will ultimately, in theory, encounter the problems as described in Morgoth's Ring.

In other words (not that you said otherwise): these things don't happen swiftly to a given mortal who simply walks into Aman (arguably unless he is close to death already, perhaps).

The overarching context there (Aman And Mortal Men) concerns why Men cannot live as immortals in Aman, but what if one accepts that death will not be withheld there? Frodo, of course, was not born in Aman, and ultimately would also not be allowed to live there as an 'immortal'. The implication is, when it came time for him to die, he could pass similarly as Aragorn did.

Author's notes on the Commentary, note 4 (Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth)

The passing 'oversea' therefore, of Mortals after the Catastrophe -- which is recorded in The Lord of the Rings -- is not quite the same thing. It was in any case a special grace. An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themseles: die of free will, or even of desire, in estel. A thing which Aragorn acheived without any such aid.' JRRT

By the way, this note also states that the passing Oversea to Eressea 'an Isle within sight of Aman' (as if Aman is distinct, as noted above) was permitted to and indeed urged upon 'all Elves' remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth.

Again, did Tolkien really mean 'all' Elves as in all Elves to Tol Eressea here? Or is he (perhaps once again) just speaking generally in this description.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

...did Tolkien really mean 'all' Elves as in all Elves to Tol Eressea here? Or is he (perhaps once again) just speaking generally in this description.

I don’t know. I do know that Tolkien specifically said that Frodo lived on Tol Eressëa. (post #3 in this thread, reference to Letter 246)

From reading what Tolkien wrote about it, I have the notion that the returning Noldor were first assigned to Tol Eressëa. By that, I mean they lived there first in the general region of Aman, the Uttermost West. I don’t think it means that they were restricted from living elsewhere, at least, not in the long run; but they seem first to have dwelled there.

The sadness reflected in “The Cottage of Lost Playâ€� suggests to me that some Elves were restricted to living in Tol Eressëa, at least for a time. As I mentioned before, their sojourn there seems purgatorial. That might reflect only the deep sadness of the Elves as time passes. (As I recall, these stories were recited to one Ǽlfwine, a mortal visiting the Cottage, and I believe “Ǽlfwineâ€� is the Anglo-Saxon equivalent of Elendil.)

Before the Akallabêth, Elves sailed regularly from Avallónë on the east coast of Tol Eressëa to ports in western Númenor. (Previous mention) There’s nothing I’m aware of that says some Elves were restricted from mingling with the Númenóreans while others were free to come and go: I don’t think it was a prison.

For someone like Elrond, who left Middle-earth only reluctantly, a home in Tol Eressëa would seem only natural. For Galadriel, who long lived under the Ban in Middle-earth (I know, I know, she wasn’t under a ban in the final two or three years of Tolkien’s lifetime of writing; but she was when Lord of the Rings and Road Goes Ever On were published and for the 25 or 30 years before those last 2 or 3), I don’t know: her desire would surely be to return to Eldamar and her old home. Celeborn left Middle-earth with even greater reluctance than Elrond – I cannot see him living far from the shoreline in Eldamar, and if possible, facing the east coast of Tol Eressëa.

Something else to think about: was the old Noldorin capital Túna deserted by the end of the Third Age? I think I remember reading something about that. And what about Avallónë? There was no longer anyplace to go from Avallónë except around the island: Elves could no longer return to visit Men. Surely the most important communities would be westward-facing, toward the interior of the Bay of Eldamar, unless, as Saruman jibed, the Elves dwelt in sadness in Avallónë, longing for their old homes across the Straight Road and wide Sea.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I believe that Tiron upon Tuna was abandoned at the end of the 2nd age, because of the Ar-Pharazon's invasion. The Elves there fled further into Aman to shelter with the Vanyar, and that the city was then largely destroyed by the avalanches which crushed Ar-Pharzon's vanguard in the pass.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I do know that Tolkien specifically said that Frodo lived on Tol Eressëa. (...) reference to Letter 246)

Not that it's not there (or somewhere), but can you post the citation?

The sadness reflected in “The Cottage of Lost Play” suggests to me that some Elves were restricted to living in Tol Eressëa, at least for a time. As I mentioned before, their sojourn there seems purgatorial. That might reflect only the deep sadness of the Elves as time passes. (As I recall, these stories were recited to one Ǽlfwine, a mortal visiting the Cottage, and I believe “Ǽlfwine” is the Anglo-Saxon equivalent of Elendil.)

The Cottage of Lost Play reflects a very early story in any case, where the Eldar of Valinor fare to the Great Lands and return with the rescued Noldoli -- and these returning Elves are certainly banned from Valinor, or nearly all, for it seems that Ingil (literary 'precursor' of the Vanyarin Ingwion son of Ingwe), who built Cortirion on Eressea, ultimately went to Valinor.

Thus we have a very different conception here, somewhat 'equivalent' to the Elves that defeated Melkor in the War of Wrath being banned from Valinor. I say somewhat 'equivalent' here but even this is pushing things, as the story found in the Lost Tales is very different in many points compared to later conceptions. It certainly pre-dates the conception I quoted from the Silmarillion of the 1930s (at least), where even the Noldor may return to Valinor.

In the very early story Eriol is the mortal who visits Tol Eressea to learn their tales and so on, and he is a Man from the 'ancient land' of the English, because here Tol Eressea will become England itself. Still early on (but later than this conception), we find Elfwine in the role of Eriol, and he becomes an Anglo-Saxon mariner from England -- as later Tol Eressea does not become England itself.

Something else to think about: was the old Noldorin capital Túna deserted by the end of the Third Age? I think I remember reading something about that.

Hmm, if you (or anyone) remember(s) this please post it.

And what about Avallónë? There was no longer anyplace to go from Avallónë except around the island: Elves could no longer return to visit Men. Surely the most important communities would be westward-facing, toward the interior of the Bay of Eldamar, unless, as Saruman jibed, the Elves dwelt in sadness in Avallónë, longing for their old homes across the Straight Road and wide Sea.

Did Saruman say this about Avallónë? I don't recall it at the moment.

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

I believe that Tiron upon Tuna was abandoned at the end of the 2nd age, because of the Ar-Pharazon's invasion. The Elves there fled further into Aman to shelter with the Vanyar, and that the city was then largely destroyed by the avalanches which crushed Ar-Pharzon's vanguard in the pass.

This is interesting, as I never really thought of this happening. Granted, the Akallabêth does note an encampment around Tirion before the description of the deaths of the mortals and so on, but I never imagined that Tuna was one of the Hills. It seems a bit odd to me that 'divine power' would not essentially preserve Tirion here, as it was mortal Men who were in the wrong at this point.

In the Drowning of Anadûnê -- the Mannish version of this tale -- Aman itself is destroyed along with Numenor, at least from the point of view of the Numenoreans anyway. Akallabêth is arguably a 'mixed' account (Elvish and Mannish) and we see that Aman was not destroyed, if removed. In my opinion we don't have a fully Elvish account, at least not in any updated form that is.

Based on the Akallabêth account, given the arguable proximity of the mortals and what is noted to have happened, it seems natural enough that Tirion could not easily withstand such upheavals and devestation. But this seems a bit 'scientific' whereas the act itself is arguably one of holy power, and I'm still not wholly convinced that Tirion upon Tuna need be one of the hills here.

Unless there is more to this in any case?

[Galin]

By the way the above is a very simplified version of the Eriol/Elfwine matter. It's difficult to show its real complexity in brief.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

Not that it's not there (or somewhere), but can you post the citation?

My bad. What is explicit in Letter246 is that Frodo died:

Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while...

-

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, if you (or anyone) remember(s) this please post it.

Lefty recited it in the post before yours. You responded to him later in your post.

-

Originally Posted by Galin

Did Saruman say this about Avallónë? I don't recall it at the moment.

RotK, “Many Partings�

Saruman … said[,] “I did not spend long study on these matters for naught. You have doomed yourselves, and you know it. And it will afford me some comfort as I wander to think that you pulled down your own house when you destroyed mine. And now, what ship will bear you back across so wide a sea? ... It will be a grey ship, and full of ghosts.�

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Lefty recited it in the post before yours. You responded to him later in your post.

OK, then I mean is there something else, as in my opinion this citation need not mean Tirion was necessarily still abandoned in the Third Age.

RotK, "Many Partings"

Ah, Saruman doesn't mention Avallóne specifically there, but I take your meaning.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Galin

This is interesting, as I never really thought of this happening. Granted, the Akallabêth does note an encampment around Tirion before the description of the deaths of the mortals and so on, but I never imagined that Tuna was one of the Hills. It seems a bit odd to me that 'divine power' would not essentially preserve Tirion here, as it was mortal Men who were in the wrong at this point.

Eru dos not seem to have been very selective in his response to Numenor. If you were not on one of the nine ships under Elendil, you were dead, everyone from the most dedicated king's man to the most recent newborn baby. Even those praying to Eru in one of his temples for deliverence.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Eru dos not seem to have been very selective in his response to Numenor. If you were not on one of the nine ships under Elendil, you were dead, everyone from the most dedicated king's man to the most recent newborn baby. Even those praying to Eru in one of his temples for deliverence.

But if Tirion was incidental damage, so to speak, I still think its destruction 'deserved' mention: Tirion upon Tuna, inspiration for Cortirion and later Gondolin... was just one of the hills?

However lack of mention does not prove Tirion survived of course.

In my opinion, in the 1960s Tolkien 'ratified' The Drowning of Anadune (DA) not only as an alternate to the Akallabeth tradition but as part of a triple tradition: Elvish, Mannish, and Mixed (noting Tolkien's note published in Sauron Defeated). DA appears to be a Mannish tradition and is meant to confuse certain things, but how did any Men (who lived) truly know what happened in Aman after Ar-Pharazon arrived?

According to DA no Men could tell the tale of their fate, and among the '... Nimri only was word preserved of the things that were; of whom the wisest in lore of old have learned this tale.' Something similar was said in Akallabeth actually (although edited out by Christopher Tolkien), so one can hardly claim that the Mannish account is more accurate regarding the following description because it ultimately hails from an Eldarin source. Anyway, in my opinion this version is either briefer, or maybe relates a swifter reaction from the Powers and Eru:

'... but pride was his master, and at last he left his ship and strode upon the shore. Then Aman called upon Eru...' Here there seems to be no encampment about Tirion or anywhere, and no falling hills in subsequent description (unless I missed something). Again, brevity could explain the difference, but would someone reading this version necessarily think Tirion was destroyed?

Not from that much maybe, but yet Aman itself is destroyed! in this account. I think the traditions are certainly meant to include contradiction and confusion, but one wonders what the Eldar really meant by 'destroyed' here (if interpreted correctly) if Gandalf, for instance, is going to sail to some kind of home in the Third Age.


I don't know, all that said, for me I would still like to see something more definitive that Tirion was destroyed at this point.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Eru dos not seem to have been very selective in his response to Numenor. If you were not on one of the nine ships under Elendil, you were dead, everyone from the most dedicated king's man to the most recent newborn baby. Even those praying to Eru in one of his temples for deliverence.

It was pretty complete.

Technically though - I don't think there WERE any temples to Eru. And I don't think many people left on the island (after filling up the 9 ships, and also all the Faithful who had already emigrated to Middle Earth) who would call out to Eru. Most were cursing him and despising him.

[Alcuin]

MÃ*riel Zimraphel, daughter of Tar-PalantÃ*r forcibly married to her first cousin Ar-Pharazôn to justify his usurpation of her throne, tried to climb to the Hallows on Meneltarma, the only recognized place of worship anywhere on Númenor until Sauron built his temple for human sacrifice in Armenelos. She was caught by the wave that overwhelmed the mountain before she reached its summit. (How anyone would know this is unclear: perhaps Elendil or someone else looked back in a palantÃ*r…)

[Noble Elf Lord]

Reckon she had done something bad? Lest they would have taken her with them, or she would have searched for the ships...?

Don't know, just guessing.