The Silmarillion: Ch.1 Of the beginning of days

[markedel]

The point being that Morgoth couldn't create, he eventually devolved into Nihlism. It wasn't the creation, it was the evil.

[Earniel]

I sadly enough haven't read Morgoth's Ring yet. Artanis, can you tell me why Morgoth put his power into the physical earth?

Well, this is my last post this year. I'm off to celebrate. See you next year!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
Hey, where is everybody? We haven't finished this yet, you know.

Hi everyone - I'm over visiting my husband's family for the holidays and can't get on the computer more than a minute or two - I'll be sure to catch up when I get back on Friday

[Artanis]

Originally posted by markedel
The point being that Morgoth couldn't create, he eventually devolved into Nihlism. It wasn't the creation, it was the evil.

I'm sorry, it's New Year's Day and I may be terribly slow today. But I don't understand. I'm aware that Morgoth could not create, and that his uttermost desire was destruction. Still he did put most of his power of being into Arda. He became dispersed, in an irreversable process.

The Valar also spent their power, but their goal was (sub)creation. I believe Yavanna gave away a part of herself when she created the Two Trees. When those trees were destroyed, she could not make them anew. What the Valar achieved, they achieved only once.

[azalea]

Also, perhaps it's because the Valar made those things for the good of all out of love (?), but Melkor did it for himself only, with domination and destruction of others and their works being his goal, and this was done out of hatred.

[Earniel]

I also think that since Morgoth knew a fear unlike the other Valar did. He feared not losing something but feared himself being hurt or captured. That's why he hid in dark forts and ran so often. Maybe this fear made him pour more of himself in his creations than the other Valar did.

[Rían]

Hooray, I'm back home! *gets cup of hot cider and settles down to read the thread*

[Rían]

1. I do not quite understand why Melkor could withstand all the rest of the Valar in the First War, before the coming of Tulkas. Melkor was the mightiest among them, but Manwe was mighty also, and the allied forces of the Valar and their supporting spirits should have conquered Melkor. Why would Tulkas make such a difference, even if he was a great warrior?

Yes, I wondered about that, too - I think, at the very first, part of it might be sheer surprise and doubt - after all, Melkor had been great and beautiful and "one of them". It might be hard for them to realize that he had really and fully committed to his rebellion and evil ways. Manwë was his brother - can you image how hard it was at first to fight against him, when you are hoping against hope that he'll turn from his evil ways? He must have felt tremendous sorrow. Tulkas seemed to make a difference because his "gift" was fighting (for the right!) - the others had to "learn" it, maybe. Also, as someone pointed out, the other Valar were trying to not destroy Arda in the fighting process.

2. When Yavanna made the two trees in Valinor, what was her motive? The marring of Arda had taken place. Did the Valar wish to preserve what had been, not wanting the foretold history to proceed? Was this a sign of weakness on their part?

I think she made the two trees for the same reason that Aulë made the two lamps - from the second paragraph - "there was need of light". Light is a good thing. However, the Valar did seem to have a bit of the "preservation" weakness of the Elves, too, and sometimes needed a "kick in the pants" to get going and fight Melkor some more.

[Rían]

Another interesting note about Tulkas - he was not one of the "original" Valar - but after rousting out Melkor,

And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda...

Makes you wonder how word got to him in the first place. Did Tulkas watch what was going on in Arda and then offer to Ilúvatar to go and help? Did Manwë ask Ilúvatar for help, and Ilúvatar decided to ask Tulkas? I like how Tulkas decided to commit himself to Arda, though, and become one of the Valar.

[Rían]

I like this quote about Manwë:

Manwë has no thought for his own honor, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to peace.

Also, in the next sentence,

The Vanyar he loved best of all the Elves, and of him they received song and poetry; for poetry is the delight of Manwë, and the song of words is his music.

The "song of words is his music" is interesting - it reminds me of Tolkien's comments on how the beauty of words affects him like music, or something along those lines.

(hmmm, 4 posts in a row for me - anyone else out there??)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Another interesting note about Tulkas - he was not one of the "original" Valar - but after rousting out Melkor,
Makes you wonder how word got to him in the first place. Did Tulkas watch what was going on in Arda and then offer to Ilúvatar to go and help? Did Manwë ask Ilúvatar for help, and Ilúvatar decided to ask Tulkas? I like how Tulkas decided to commit himself to Arda, though, and become one of the Valar.

It must have been pretty boring being with Iluvatar for someone like him, don't you think? With his personality he would prefer the turmoils and fights in Arda. Perhaps he resembles Men in that way, who does seem do need something to fight for in their lives, or doesn't seem to be content with peace and happy days over a long period.

The "song of words is his music" is interesting - it reminds me of Tolkien's comments on how the beauty of words affects him like music, or something along those lines.

Yes, interesting. Looks like Manwe resembles Tolkien most of all.

Also RÃ*an, I agree with you that the Valar also had a bit of the 'preservation' weakness. The Valar were not perfect, and they also could make wrong judgements. Their original intent with making the two trees no doubt were good: To replace the light of the lamps and keep it away from Melkor, but I do think the gross of them became enamoured with the bliss they experienced, and more or less chose to forget their original task, to care for all of Arda.

[Dunadan]

Hello everyone.

Originally posted by Artanis
There should be some interesting topics to discuss here.

1. I do not quite understand why Melkor could withstand all the rest of the Valar in the First War, before the coming of Tulkas. Melkor was the mightiest among them, but Manwe was mighty also, and the allied forces of the Valar and their supporting spirits should have conquered Melkor. Why would Tulkas make such a difference, even if he was a great warrior?

I had thought this was because Melkor had made warfare and domination his "specialisms", so to speak. By their nature, most of the Valar would find it very difficult to figure out how to overthrow one of their kin, never mind put it into practice. Tulkas was the man for the job.

This point illustrates, I think, that Tolkien's conception of "power" in ME is rather different from how power is usually depicted in this genre. It's not about casting spells or psychic powers. Often, power is expressed metaphorically with reference to the essence of a particular character. An example could Tom Bombadil saying that "no-one's ever caught Tom". So, you might not catch him, but that doesn't mean he's any use at siege warfare. The Valar's respective powers would be innate and tied to their essences.

Interesting comments about Men; and that Elves regarded Men as being similar to Melkor. I agree with the folks who said that Melkor feared the "gift of Iluvatar" (and the elves probably envied it; great stuff about fate, Artanis). No matter what he did to them, their spirits escaped eventually in death. Clearly, in the example of Hurin (or was it Huor), he preferred to keep him alive and crush his spirit than to kill him. No matter how completely he dominated Men, there would always be new generations with the potential to escape.

Which is nice

cheers

d.

[Wayfarer]

Remember, even at that time melkor was putting most of his power into domination of the physical world, and the valar weren't prepared to face him on that level. But tulkas was, and so he could beat melkor at his own game.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I sadly enough haven't read Morgoth's Ring yet. Artanis, can you tell me why Morgoth put his power into the physical earth?

Sorry Eärniel, I didn't notice your question until now. Morgoth did so to gain dominion over the Earth and everything that lived on it. His uttermost goal was to destroy the Children of Iluvatar, and especially Men, whom he despised more, but feared most. He knew he could not annihilate their spirits, because they were not of this world, so he concentrated on destroying their physical existence.

[Earniel]

thanks

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Artanis
The Valar also spent their power, but their goal was (sub)creation. I believe Yavanna gave away a part of herself when she created the Two Trees. When those trees were destroyed, she could not make them anew. What the Valar achieved, they achieved only once.

That's true, and the theme runs through much of what the Elves created, too.

I'm not sure that the text states that Yavanna intended to create the trees:

.. and she sat there long upon the green grass and sang a song of power, in which was set all ther thought of things that grow in the earth.

So she wasn't thinking specifically about trees of light.

But Nienna thought in silence, and watered the mould with her tears.

Clearly, the trees wouldn't have come about without Nienna. Did either of them know exactly what they were creating?

cheers

d.

(PS - I reckon that's a misprint in the text in the quote about Nienna: shouldn't it be "mound" instead of "mould"?)

[Dunadan]

What about that last sentence in the chapter?

Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Iluvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the world's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

This is a groovy thought.

For some reason I've got a mental picture of Elvis centre stage with John Lennon tied and gagged in the corner.

Lennon: "Imagine there's no heaven..."
Manwe: "That's enough of that sort of talk. Backing vocals only for you from now on, mate."

cheers

d.

[Wayfarer]

That's a pretty funny mental picture.

For some reason I think morgoth and sauron ought to do their own version of 'in the end' (I tried so hard/and I got so far/but in the end/it doesn't even matter). It seems to fit somehow. ]: )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Iluvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the world's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

According to Morgoth's Ring the Elves of Valinor knew nothing of Men until Melkor told them.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
So she wasn't thinking specifically about trees of light.

Perhaps not necessarily the form of trees, but I do think she wanted to create light, because all groving things on earth depended on it. The growth of flowers and trees in Middle-earth was checked when Melkor cast down the lamps.

Clearly, the trees wouldn't have come about without Nienna.

The beauty here is that something wonderful sprung out of tears and sorrow, combined with the will to repair and make anew.