Gah politics! Middle East discussion

[markedel]

I rarely gripe about such matters on this forum, but frankly matter in the middle east have shaken me out of my usual cynicism. So here I sit and I say GAH!

I also figure any response I get will be far more rational then die arab/zionist maggots. Ah usenet!

[Twilight]

I personally am very much in support of Israel. The way things are going, I don't think the situation can last very long as it is. Something is going to happen. I don't think peace is going to happen in the area any time soon. Both sides ask for things that the other can't give

[Starr Polish]

::runs away from this potential flame spot::

Let's just not have another pyre of Denethor, me-eh?

[galadriel88]

Well if they're not gonna find bin Laden any time soon, why keep talking about it? Every day on the news, it's: "Authorities say they are no closer to finding bin Laden and suspect he has fled to neighboring Pakistan..." or something to that effect. Quite frankly, it's getting on my nerves!

[Laurelyn]

Originally posted by markedel
I rarely gripe about such matters on this forum, but frankly matter in the middle east have shaken me out of my usual cynicism. So here I sit and I say GAH!

Politics . . . damn right baffling, if you ask me. I can't stand all these wars although I know there's nothing I can do about them. I don't even understand them because nobody sees fit to inform me, and the newspapers never tell the whole story, just the latest update. Anyways, I don't read the news much anymore; it's all too depressing (so-and-so died, this-and-this got bombed) and I won't do anybody any good if I land in a mental hospital for depression. So I go on what I'm told, which could be a mistake, but oh well. There's always the radio.
And I can't see the use of Bush's "War on Terror" . . . he's waging a war against what's left of the Taliban, not terrorism. I'm thinking that half the point of fighting it is to quell the bloddthirstiness of the millions of Americans who have been thoroughly p*ssed off by the 9/11 incident (heck, we've got a right to be mad, and upset, but I myself see no use in going and killing more poeple than have already been killed).

*looks at all she's just written*Gah . . . and I said I thought politics were baffling . . . excuse me while I get off my soapbox.

[markedel]

I wasn't interested in debating (way too much fire) I was venting and this a place where you can vent without starting an itense debate over arab land rights in pre-mandate palestine or some such. Unless the admins get you nwah ha ha

[galadriel88]

Well, sorry, but if you make a threaf such as this, you're gonna get replies, and there's gonna be a debate...it's kinda inevitable.

[mirrille]

Laurelyn, I was in the same situation. The newspapers will not give you the background. You read them, they will just confuse you. If you want to figure out who's fighting who and why, you'd be better off going to some modern history book that explains the sequence of events. You better try several different versions, because with stuff this recent, there's bound to be bias, so you gotta sort through that. I eventually had to get my history buff friend to explain it all the me ( the modern part. If we had started with biblical times, it would take forever). After hearing that, I've decided that both sides (Israeli and Palestinian) are in the wrong somewhere in the whole process, but the power balance just shifts from one group to the other depending on different things. So frustrating. There's never going to be peace in that area. It boggles the mind. How can people live in that kind of world? It's so sad.

[afro-elf]

as the old posters here know, I work I Saudi Arabia.( and no I am NOT in the military and never was)

I think that the Zionist and Islamic Fundamentalist ( notice I didn't say Muslims and Jews) should have one of those white trash death cage matches like in wrestling and they could just kill each other off.

Then, maybe, the level headed members could find a solution.

Being here in the thick of things I see that the hatred between both groups is beyond comprehension.

I do find the Saudis can not understand that there
is difference between a Jew and a Zionist.

But guess some people think all Muslims are suicidial,homocidial,militants

[afro-elf]

But guess some people think all Muslims are suicidial,homocidial,militants

There not!?


just poking fun at what wayfarer might say

[Alethes]

Originally posted by Laurelyn

I can't stand all these wars although I know there's nothing I can do about them. I don't even understand them because nobody sees fit to inform me, and the newspapers never tell the whole story, just the latest update....And I can't see the use of Bush's "War on Terror" . . . he's waging a war against what's left of the Taliban, not terrorism. I'm thinking that half the point of fighting it is to quell the bloddthirstiness of the millions of Americans who have been thoroughly p*ssed off by the 9/11 incident (heck, we've got a right to be mad, and upset, but I myself see no use in going and killing more poeple than have already been killed).

Sometimes the newspapers can't tell us the whole war story because it's top secret.

The Taliban are terrorists. They committed a horrific terrorist act against the U.S. They want to wipe us off the planet. If we don't fight them, they will conclude that the Americans don't bother to fight their enemies, and will therefore be easy to destroy. Then they'll attack us even more. We have to teach the terrorists that America is a force to be reckoned with. Wanting to save lives is admirable -- America is trying to do just that. And BTW, I don't think I'm bloodthirsty.

[markedel]

Well my views have swung from relatively dovish to bomb the west bank to rubble. Not that the leaders on all sides aren't all idiots, its just that I can't think another way to get terrorists attention.

[afro-elf]

Anyone see Swordfish?


Don't recall the exact wording but it was like:

They take a church we take 10 of theirs

They take an airplane we take an airport

...Blah Blah Blah.. something and we tactically nuke a city

to make the thought of terrorism too costly


i don't think that I am as pro-american as Alethes seems to be. We do have our problems and sins , However, I am against terrorism which I define as attacking civilians.

I feel that you cross a line there then I believe in the above statement from swordfish

HOWEVER there is one big problem, groups are terrorist not countries

also should we invade northren ireland to stop the terrorism there?

one the saudis here said the only way to sovle the problem is for the the jews and muslims in the middle east to for them to nuke each other off of the face of the Earth

I am no supporter of Isreal;however, whenever they stop hostilities some fundamentalist breaks the truce, inwhich Isreal will attack and the cycle just continues

[MasterMothra]

these people have been fighting for thousands of years, lets just let them finish it. whoever wins gets the country. sounds simple enough for me.

[mirrille]

Not going to happen.
No one is ever going to admit defeat. Things are just going to cycle until the sun becomes a red giant and engulfs us all.

[markedel]

It won't last that long, if this continues I give Israel 15 years tops.

[Laurelyn]

Originally posted by Alethes
And BTW, I don't think I'm bloodthirsty.

Never intended to imply that you might be . . . just some people were happy when this war was started. The people who want to kill all those who live in Afghanistan just to get revenge for what a terror group did. That's what I mean by bloodthirsty.

[afro-elf]

It won't last that long, if this continues I give Israel 15 years tops.

I have to i kinda disagree. DEPENDING on the manner of attack.

With the exception of 9-11 which was sheer brilliance ( through a logistics POV) the arabs are a HIGHLY disorganized people.

look at the precariou sitaution Isreal has been in for years.

Surrounded and outnumbered.

I work in the "heart of Islam" and national differences are stronger than their religions ones ( I really wanna go into a religious tirade BUT i'll refrain)


There is heirachy and division that is apalling.

The saudis AS A WHOLE treat others with a thinly veiled disdain.


The "WHITE" Arabs are next to the saudis( egypt, jordan, syria, tunisia etc) then the Black Arabs (sudan etc) then Philipinos and educated Indians, then regular indians, pakis, and people from bagladesh other SE asian countries

( ps when i say black muslim it means non- saudi blacks. but even though have rights here as saudis they still seem to be a tad less equal than the "white" saudi"

The latter ,those after the black arabs, are little more than slaves here they really have no rights

several of my students have called them animals
However they're all Muslims

( this could be applied to all religions, however the focus is islam now)

I forgot about the turks they are at the paki level. ( i guess that when the ottomans fell the saudis never forgave them)


the point being is that the only organized efforts seemed to have
been 9-11

The only time that the religion seems to do anything is violence

( yes I'm exaggerating)


I't would take and co-ordinated arab attack on israel which I don't see happening. Isreal with US help could probably take it. They are to well organized unlike the arabs.

a MAJOR terrorism act like a nuclear explosion would do the trick

however I think the israeli mind set would be to counter strike with nukes

there's my early morning vent

[crickhollow]

Wow, a-e, thanks for the complicated but interesting breakdown. At least, I found it interesting, but it sound like I'm [one of] the only polisci/hist/current events junkie[s] on the moot. From what I've seen (from my relatively limited perspective), Islam is not a strong enough uniting factor to rule out the interests of various groups (six day war?)

[markedel]

Israel has 15 years because

Israel can only stop this terrorist warfare with full reoccupation of the territories and killing lots of palestinians. Now this happens to palestinians every 20 years or so. Unfortunetly Israel is restrained and so it will suffer until it a) collapses because of unending terrorism that destroys the fabric of the country or b) negotiates with the palestinians into pre-1967 borders. The palestinians who seem to show no desire to do anything but kill Israelis (as a nationalist movement) use their mini-state as a terrorist haven, and commence to do a). Or if they're lucky get right of return of wipe Israel off the face the Earth through demographics. Sure it takes longer then conventional warfare, but I have more faith in the palestinian ability to wage terrorist warfare then the world's ability to care about a bunch of Jews.

And that's how I feel about the situation.