Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by frodomerryandaragornrock

here's another supporter of my case that i found on another lotr website (not like there'e any of those, right??) :http://www.barrowdowns.com/articles_...rdofnazgul.php

THANX every1!!!

Good article, but I don't beleive the central premise: that anyone on the field could have killed the W-K, once Merry got in his admittedly utterly vital stab. Glorfindel's prophecy was "“Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.” I suppose that the poster is interpreting "fall" literally, and the W-K indeed stumbles after Merry's hit, but I feel that in the context and language used, "fall" means being killed. Tolkien was, of course familiar with the Delphic tradition of oracles that say a thing that could mean different things, and this was one he even referred to: Gandalf saying: "Of course, absurdly simple, like most riddles..." I also note that this conceit (if I may call it so) was continued from the earliest version of the tale.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Good article, but I don't beleive the central premise: that anyone on the field could have killed the W-K, once Merry got in his admittedly utterly vital stab. Glorfindel's prophecy was "“Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.”

I think we are back to the "could" and "would" argument. Another nice oldie.

Could a man kill the WK, given the opportunity? Sure he could - but he wouldn't get this opportunity.

Could a woman and a hobbit with a Barrow-blade kill the WK back in TA 1975? Yes they could - exactly in the same manner as in TA 3019. But would they be given the chance? No, as the prophecy said "Far off is his doom". Thus the WK basically had nothing to fear for a very long time after the prophesy had been made: men, women, Elves, Dwarves, falling meteorites, drunken orcs, hungry fellbeasts, angry Sauron - there was nothing that would bring about his doom before the time was ripe.

[Attalus]

I have to say that this thread has discussed the question more intelligently and with less heat than I have ever seen done. The "losing" poster often quite sth forum in disgust. Great job, everyone.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Entmoot has to be the friendliest board I've found. Not the place to come for a good knock-down, drag-out but certainly a nice place for good, well thought out opinions.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If while the beast was alive, the shadow cast was upon Eowyn, then the sunrise was behind him.

When WiKi faced Eowyn, the sun was facing her, making her difficult to see.
Likewise, had the WiKi turned to look behind him where Merry crept up, he would be looking into the sun, further obscuring his vision. He kept the sun to his back, along with Merry.

[Gordis]

Very likely, DPR.
The Rohirrim were coming from the North, while the WK likely kept his beast somewhere on the road to Osgiliath, if not in Osgiliath itself. Thus he was likely coming from the East when he attacked Theoden and indeed had sunrise behind his back.

Here is K.W. Fonstad's map:http://Pelennor

[Zilbanne]

Hi All! Does anybody remember Pippin's attitude when he and Gandalf first came to the main gate upon their arrival at Gondor? Pippin really hotly denies that he is a man, when Gandalf refers to him as one, to the gate guards. Pippin proclaims himself a Hobbit and not a man. Pippin also says he has not come of age yet in his own country. Though mentioning his adolescence here doesn't have much relevance to my point.

Adult male Hobbits are described as men in a kind of way, through descriptive simplicity and perhaps because of a lack of other pronouns in common speech . Yet they are not men are in the same way as Aragorn or Faramir are.

Anyway I'm but a fledgling here at Entmoot but I believe Merry was able to help Eowyn kill the Witch king only because he was not a man and had the special weapon chosen for him by T. Bobadil, in edition to his Hobbit status.

Though I can't prove it, I think say if Eomer used Merry's blade against the witch king, it may have wounded him but wouldn't have had the same deadly effect that Merry's will and arm had in using it.

_Zilbanne

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Hm. Tolkien does say that the flying beast “settled upon the body of Snowmane, digging in its claws, stooping its long, naked neck.” But I think that lifting them up and about was a cinematic invention akin to the “speaking” or roaring Balrog,

Yes, the beast was a carrion-feeder - it was ready to gobble down a portion of Snowmane and maybe also Theoden (though with his mail and helm he could have been hard to swallow).

But do carrion-birds carry the carcasses of the dead beasts away? I don't think they do. Actually, all bird bones are tubular: hollow inside and very light. It was also true for flying dinosaurs, IIRC. Thus, being light themselves, the birds can hardly carry a great weight, exceeding their own.

Now the Fell Beast already carries the Nazgul King (who weights, I believe, exactly the same as a living man of the same great stature), his armor, clothes, weapons (including the heavy mace) and likely a saddle. The poor beast is heavily burdened as it is, and I don't believe it can lift much in addition: certainly not a horse. Remember the Eagles complaining about Gandalf's weight? One carried him from Isengard to Edoras, but no further - and Gandalf was not armored and smaller then the WK.

This said, I don't believe in Fell Beasts (with riders) lifting up horses.

Zilbanne, welcome here! You are a lucky one - you discuss this old WK-Eowyn-the prophecy question for the very first time. Have fun!

You are quite right mentioning Pippin denying being a Man. He is "no Man" in the same way as Macduff is not "of woman born" - not quite, but enough to fit with the prophecy. Same way Eowyn is of Men, but "no man." There is a trick in the prophecy, it proved to be not as straightforward as it looked. It would have been much less interesting if Glorfindel meant an Elf or a Dwarf, would it?

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Anyway I'm but a fledgling here at Entmoot but I believe Merry was able to help Eowyn kill the Witch king only because he was not a man and had the special weapon chosen for him by T. Bobadil, in edition to his Hobbit status

I agree. + Merry was extremely favored by the circumstances: WK's attention being elsewhere, his vision impaired, nobody watching his back. Had Merry tried to face the nazgul head on, he would have been squashed like a midge, Barrow-blade or not.

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Though I can't prove it, I think say if Eomer used Merry's blade against the witch king, it may have wounded him but wouldn't have had the same deadly effect that Merry's will and arm had in using it.

Here I have to disagree. I think IF Eomer had the chance to hit the WK with Merry's blade, the effect would have been exactly the same: the nazgul would have fallen down.
But the problem is that Eomer wouldn't get the opportunity for this hit - the circumstances wouldn't favor him, because it would make Glorfindel's prophecy untrue.

I am not sure I managed to explain my position well enough, though…. Did you get my meaning?

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Hi All! Does anybody remember Pippin's attitude when he and Gandalf first came to the main gate upon their arrival at Gondor? Pippin really hotly denies that he is a man, when Gandalf refers to him as one, to the gate guards. Pippin proclaims himself a Hobbit and not a man. Pippin also says he has not come of age yet in his own country. Though mentioning his adolescence here doesn't have much relevance to my point.

Adult male Hobbits are described as men in a kind of way, through descriptive simplicity and perhaps because of a lack of other pronouns in common speech . Yet they are not men are in the same way as Aragorn or Faramir are.

Anyway I'm but a fledgling here at Entmoot but I believe Merry was able to help Eowyn kill the Witch king only because he was not a man and had the special weapon chosen for him by T. Bobadil, in edition to his Hobbit status.

Though I can't prove it, I think say if Eomer used Merry's blade against the witch king, it may have wounded him but wouldn't have had the same deadly effect that Merry's will and arm had in using it.

_Zilbanne

To quote Michael Martinez, Pippin can in no way be considered an authority on Hobbit ancestry, being a "tomfool of a Took." JRRT, however, can, and for those who have or should have read TFotR Prologue: 1. Concerning Hobbits, should know that Hobbits are "in spite of later estragements, Hobbits are relatives of ours, far nearer to us than Elves, or even Dwarves."

[jammi567]

On the issue of Merry's blade itself, I was wondering how the people who made it (whoever they were) know exactly what would cause the WK to "die", and if they did know (which they clearly did), then why didn't they try doing that in the first place when they were attacking the WK back in the 1900's?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi568

On the issue of Merry's blade itself, I was wondering how the people who made it (whoever they were) know exactly what would cause the WK to "die", and if they did know (which they clearly did), then why didn't they try doing that in the first place when they were attacking the WK back in the 1900's?

We can tell that the blades were made between TA 1300 (the foundation of Angmar) and 1409 (when the Last Prince of Cardolan perished and was entombed in the Barrow). Most likely they date from 1356-1409, as it was only in 1356 that Angmar became aggressive.
But the know-how of making enchanted weapons likely came from Numenor. The Mouth of Sauron (or his Master) recognised the sword design and called it "the blade of the Downfallen West".

Perhaps there was a unique "school" of craftsmen in Tyrn Gorthad - or in Tharbad? Tharbad was one of the oldest Numenorean cities in ME, predating the Downfall, and even older was Lond Daer Ened - Vinyalonde. There should have been libraries with ME chronicles of the Second Age still intact. A scholar from Cardolan might have found out the know-how of making enchanted swords as well as the IDENTITY of the Lord of the Nazgul. I believe they had his real name and used it in the spell.

I think the know-how of the sword making was lost with the end of Cardolan. All of the craftsmen might have been killed in the 1409 war, or, more likely, they died during the Plague of 1636. " It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."

I believe, the Witch-King sent the Wights to guard the ONLY remaining blades. What was the point, if such blades were being constantly produced in Arthedain? No, likely the secret was lost.

There is no mention of such blades being used in the last Angmar War of 1974-75. And HAD there been such blades at the battle of Fornost, where Gondoreans fought alongside Arnoreans, don't you think that Earnur would have imported the blades and the secret of their making into Gondor? They have been attacked by the Witch-King only 27 years after the battle of Fornost and had him and the other nazgul as their close neighbors, right across the river, ever since. IF Earnur knew of the blades, the workshop for their mass-production would have been installed in Minas-Tirith.

[Jon S.]

Excellent observation, Zilbanne, whether correct or not (who knows for sure?).

[Zilbanne]

Thanks for the welcome GORDIS! Yes I think I understand your position about making prophecy come true. - Sorry I'm not good at handling quotes within the messages yet.

Are Hobbits closer to Men in their essence as a Middle Earth race than Elves or Dwarves? So that Hobbits are better to realize the prophecy? It seems so to me. Good J.R.R. understood those cheerful hole dwellers to be akin to all that was comfortable to himself in England.


Yes GORDIS I guess possibly Eomer could have knocked the Nazgul down. I see your position; Eomer simply would never have the opportunity to hit the Witch King the way Merry did was because it would go against the prophecy.

Part of what helped Merry, was that he was disregarded like a worm in the mud. Head on it would have been very different for this brave Hobbit, I agree with that.

However I can't make out that if Eomer was able to hit the witch king, if it would have been as helpful as Merry's blow, to Eowyn, or not. I think for you GORDIS, if the prophecy were set aside, the physical effect on the nazgul would be the same if Eomer hit him first and not Merry? History didn't live itself out that way, so we won't know. But therein is compelling mystery!

Somehow I think beyond the prophecy, that Merry had a special attribution just by the fact that he was a Hobbit, to assist in killing the WK, that a man wouldn't have. Sort of like Frodo's ability to withstand the poison from the morgul blade for so long. Strider, Gandalf and Elrond knew that a man with Frodo's type of wound would have been overcome much more quickily. So that in edition to that special weapon, Merry's peculiar Hobbit hardiness aided him specifically in hurting the Nazgul.



Honestly I can't find Glorfindel's prophecy in print. " Sigh "

Rob Inglis has been reading Middle Earth to me lately. I seem to have left the best my eyes under a much danced upon table at a popular Inn in Bree.


A heart swelling aside here.... I love visiting Middle Earth because it's so comfortably familliar yet enticingly exotic and foreign all at the same time!


******

Zounds! Now I want a set of nazgul shaped bowling pins and a blessed set of glowing blue, Gondolin made bowling balls to go with them!

**********************************
Knock down some nazgul for all the free people of Middle Earth!

_Zilbanne

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Somehow I think beyond the prophecy, that Merry had a special attribution just by the fact that he was a Hobbit, to assist in killing the WK, that a man wouldn't have. Sort of like Frodo's ability to withstand the poison from the morgul blade for so long. Strider, Gandalf and Elrond knew that a man with Frodo's type of wound would have been overcome much more quickily. So that in edition to that special weapon, Merry's peculiar Hobbit hardiness aided him specifically in hurting the Nazgul.

You have a good point here. Normally a living Man facing a Nazgul (and especially the WK) would be turned into jelley by fear. That is exactly what had happened to the knights of Theoden's entourage:

But lo! suddenly in the midst of the glory of the king his golden shield was dimmed. The new morning was blotted from the sky. Dark fell about him. Horses reared and screamed. Men cast from the saddle lay grovelling on the ground. [...] The knights of his house lay slain about him, or else mastered by the madness of their steeds were borne far away.

Only two persons were able to overcome the terror: Eowyn (who actively sought death) and the hobbit, though at first Merry succumbed as well:

Merry crawled on all fours like a dazed beast, and such a horror was on him that he was blind and sick.‘King’s man! King’s man!’ his heart cried within him. ‘You must stay by him. As a father you shall be to me, you said.’ But his will made no answer, and his body shook. He dared not open his eyes or look up.

But then hobbit curiosity made him open his eyes and "the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke".

I guess the horror of the nazgul worked not so strongly on Hobbits than on the regular Men, much like the Morgul-poison also affected them to a lesser degree.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Normally a living Man facing a Nazgul (and especially the WK) would be turned into jelley by fear. That is exactly what had happened to the knights of Theoden's entourage:
...
Only two persons were able to overcome the terror: Eowyn (who actively sought death) and the hobbit, though at first Merry succumbed as well:

The Dúnedain that Aragorn assigned to guard Sarn Ford (“stone ford”) over the Baranduin held off all Nine Black Riders during the day, but broke and ran at night. Besides Éowyn, Aragorn had courage to face the Nazgûl and fought several of them together at Weathertop. Faramir fought them courageously, too, but was finally overcome by Black Breath; I think, though, that we should account him most brave, and overcome in part by his father’s seeming unlove and rejection, as Gandalf diagnosed him.

I think the implication of the backstory is that there were others with such courage, too. The Steward Boromir endured a Morgul wound that was properly treated, though he still died of pain 12 years later, for instance. Of him, “The Stewards” in Appendix A in RotK says,

Boromir son of Denethor [I] (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was named) defeated [the uruks out of Mordor that invaded Ithilien]… Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him.

-|-

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Honestly I can't find Glorfindel's prophecy in print. " Sigh "

Look in Return of the King, Appendix A, section (iv), “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion,” just in front of the section marked “The Stewards.” It isn’t in the section about Arnor: it’s in the material discussing Eärnur, the last king of Gondor, and the role he played in the defeat of the Witch-king and his army of Angmar at Fornost.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The Dúnedain that Aragorn assigned to guard Sarn Ford (“stone ford”) over the Baranduin held off all Nine Black Riders during the day, but broke and ran at night.

Yes, but that was a ford across Baranduin - a large river. Perhaps the nazgul were more hindered by running water than by rangers.

Edit: I mean, what if the River was a barrier to the nazgul fear-spell? What if they had to cross first and then and only then their terror would hit the Dunedain full force?

At night even the most steadfast of the rangers gave way, but some ran away from the start

The hearts even of the Dunedain misgave them. Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away. - UT, the hunt for the Ring

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Besides Éowyn, Aragorn had courage to face the Nazgûl and fought several of them together at Weathertop.

Did he really fight anyone?

But I agree- he didn't quail and was ready to fight, thus attracting the WK's attention:

[The Witch-king] now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. -RC p. 180

Note: the mere fact that Aragorn didn't cower but rushed to them with his burning sticks made him unique in the nazgul's eyes.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Faramir fought them courageously, too, but was finally overcome by Black Breath

Where did he do it?

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I think the implication of the backstory is that there were others with such courage, too. The Steward Boromir endured a Morgul wound ...

Right, there were a few brave ones, no doubt, but they were extremely rare - men of note, great ones, not your average Men.
Usually the nazgul met no resistance.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Where did he do it?

Before the siege of Minas Tirith, Faramir led the defense of the bridges of Osgiliath and of the outer defenses. He was hounded back to the walls by the Nazgûl, but held his men and his will, to the thrill of Pippin and the Dúnedain in the City. When Denethor sent him back out again, Gandalf reminded him not to throw his life away; and the Dúnedain initially believed he had been hit by a Nazgûl dart rather than a Southron arrow. He did not quail.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Right, there were a few brave ones, no doubt, but they were extremely rare - men of note, great ones, not your average Men.
Usually the nazgul met no resistance.

I agree. None was your typical Dúnadan, and more rare indeed among other mortals. (The hatred of the Witch-king toward Eärnur was in part due to his peculiar fearlessness.) A Nazgûl messenger sent to King Dáin of Erebor frightened even the Dwarves, although Dáin seems to have not only kept his head, but showed a measure of defiance.

[Attalus]

I agree with most of this, and actually find something new to speculate about. Merry's blade has usually thought of as unique, though we are told that both his and Pippin's were "worked about with spells for the bane of Mordor." I have no doubt that whatever mage/craftsman who wrought Merry's blade cursed the Witch-King as he or she made it.

[Olmer]

Gordis, I admire your way of thinking. You are never ceasing to surprise us with your discoveries.:-))
I have thought that a subject of the Witch-King's killing was already well "chewed", and, yet, the guarding of the very special blades made a sence. It's putting the Witch-King's activities at the Tyrn Gorthad purposeful and rational. I like it!

[Gordis]

Well, thanks ,

1.We know that the Witch-King sent the evil spirits to inhabit the Barrows of Cardolan in 1636 - (App. A and "The Hunt for the Ring").

It was at [the time of the Great Plague of 1636] that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.- LOTR App.A
The Hunt for the Ring, Marquette MSS 4/2/33, notes that 'the Witch-King ... had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dunedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gorthad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself' (see also Unfinished Tales, p. 348).

2.We know that the Witch-King knew about the existance of the Barrow-blades and their potential danger to himself. He recognized the swords straight away.

3. We know that the Witch-King knew that the Barrow blades wielded at the Weathertop could only come from a barrow.

But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted [the Witch-King], had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight - RC, p. 180

I think there is no great leap of logic to suppose that one of the reasons why the WK sent the Wights to the Barrows back in 1636 was to guard the dangerous blades in the tombs of the Dunedain.

Also, note that the first thing the Witch-King did when approaching Frodo over the Ford (their next encounter after the Weathertop) was to break Frodo's blade by magic.