Opinions: Fëanor, ritcheous or over-proud?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Linaewen
Whoops. *looks sheepish* The fullness of her PM box is partially due to me and my stupidity.

No harm, no foul.

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
[B]Feanor is to me a tragic hero, though he makes several Faustian errors, I think it is more fate that lead to his fall. [B]

Very true, Inderjit. However, in the end it was his own will and personality that cause his own fall. He chose to do the things he did, he has a choice and he made it. He was not a pawn in Eru's game. Typically, the Noldor were not selfish, Fëanor was an exception

...but the Noldor were beloved of Aulë, and he and his people came often among them. Great became their knowledge and their skill.... And it came to pass that the mansons of the house of Finwë, quarrying in the hills after stone... first discovered the earth-gems, and brought them forth in countless myriads.... They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor.

Fëanor hoarded the Silmarils. He should have given them to the Valar when The Trees were destroyed, but he was selfish. The Silmarils were made from The Trees and should have been shared by all, just as The Trees were.

[Linaewen]

Yay! Thanks Ruinel! Inderjit totally convinced me there that my stance of Feanor was wrong... You've renewed by detestation!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Linaewen
Yay! Thanks Ruinel! Inderjit totally convinced me there that my stance of Feanor was wrong... You've renewed by detestation!

Anytime, dear friend, anytime.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Anytime, dear friend, anytime.

Dear friend? Oh how kind of you. I guess our completely off-topic discussions about my 'love' for Orli Bloom (who is now an elf) has made us rather close...

[Falagar]

Must...convince...Linaewen...

Looks like I'm too late, Ruinel got here first

[Maedhros]

He chose to do the things he did, he has a choice and he made it.

You mean like the choice that his mother, alone of all the Eldar gave up her hröa in Valinórë, or the one where his father was slained in there too?
How do you know how he felt looking at all the elves who had eternal life, yet his mother was not with him?

Fëanor hoarded the Silmarils. He should have given them to the Valar when The Trees were destroyed, but he was selfish. The Silmarils were made from The Trees and should have been shared by all, just as The Trees were.

The Silmarils were made of the Light of the Trees, not of the trees themselves.
Why did Melkor tried to influence Fëanor most of all, because HE was the genius amongst the elves. What would a mere say an FF could compare in the genius of him? Fëanor was the only elf capable of leading the Ñoldor out of Valinórë, he was the only one who had the passion to follow his will.

I guess our completely off-topic discussions about my 'love' for Orli Bloom (who is now an elf) has made us rather close...

I always knew that Ruinel was an Legolas fan!

[Falagar]

What would a mere say an FF could compare in the genius of him?

Shh! Are you trying to get us all killed?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
You mean like the choice that his mother, alone of all the Eldar gave up her hröa in Valinórë, or the one where his father was slained in there too? How do you know how he felt looking at all the elves who had eternal life, yet his mother was not with him?

Many go through trials in their lives and yet in adulthood make the decision to do what is right. To say that he was hurt by these things and that these hurts had the power over him to change him for the worse without his wanting it to happen is not right. Think about the many children who grow up in abused families or who are abandoned in childhood that grow up to be kind to their own children. They choose this, even though their lives were hard.

Originally posted by Maedhros
The Silmarils were made of the Light of the Trees, not of the trees themselves.

But without the trees he would not have had the light. Why should he hoard them so? The Trees were for all to share, including their light. The Trees were not placed in a private garden. No, they were placed so that all could share in their beauty. Feanor should have shared what he made. But he was selfish and greedy.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Why did Melkor tried to influence Fëanor most of all, because HE was the genius amongst the elves.

*snore*

Originally posted by Maedhros
What would a mere say an FF could compare in the genius of him? Fëanor was the only elf capable of leading the Ñoldor out of Valinórë, he was the only one who had the passion to follow his will.

A will of greed and selfishness is not the will of a great leader! To lead is to do what is best for those you lead, not to fulfill your own selfish desires. The Noldor did not all follow Feanor, they followed the princes of the Noldor. They were not all under Feanor.

Originally posted by Maedhros
I always knew that Ruinel was an Legolas fan!

grrrrrrrr... *draws sword, bears teeth* you had better retract that statement or I shall run you through.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Falagar
Must...convince...Linaewen...

Looks like I'm too late, Ruinel got here first

Oh, no. Don't worry. You can still try to convince me. I am, after all, willing to look at things from different angles (as Ruinel herself said). Though I doubt what you can say will persuade me. I cannot like Fëanor, especially because of the Kinslaying.

[Maedhros]

Many go through trials in their lives and yet in adulthood make the decision to do what is right. To say that he was hurt by these things and that these hurts had the power over him to change him for the worse without his wanting it to happen is not right. Think about the many children who grow up in abused families or who are abandoned in childhood that grow up to be kind to their own children. They choose this, even though their lives were hard.

And how many of those were elves who lived in paradise?

A will of greed and selfishness is not the will of a great leader! To lead is to do what is best for those you lead, not to fulfill your own selfish desires. The Noldor did not all follow Feanor, they followed the princes of the Noldor. They were not all under Feanor.

Fingolfin followed the will of Fëanor. No Fëanor, no leaving of Valinórë.

grrrrrrrr... *draws sword, bears teeth* you had better retract that statement or I shall run you through.

SGH, where are you?

[Elvellon]

Ruinel wrote:

Many go through trials in their lives and yet in adulthood make the decision to do what is right. To say that he was hurt by these things and that these hurts had the power over him to change him for the worse without his wanting it to happen is not right. Think about the many children who grow up in abused families or who are abandoned in childhood that grow up to be kind to their own children. They choose this, even though their lives were hard.

And yet, how much are we the product of the environment and fortuitous choices we make? And Feanor was not only subject to the environment, but also to the deliberate, cunning malice of Morgoth, that knew very well how to manipulate Feanor (and Fingolfin).

[Sister Golden Hair]

SGH, where are you?

Aw, don't worry Meadhros, I won't let her run you through.

I consider Feanor to be one of those Elves whose fea was tainted. So the tragic events that happened in his life really don't matter too much. Had his parents lived, he probably would still have been the same. His spirit was just not quite right.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
And how many of those were elves who lived in paradise?
Fingolfin followed the will of Fëanor. No Fëanor, no leaving of Valinórë.

SGH, where are you?

Paradise or no paradise, we all live by free will and make the choices for our lives, whether we be Elf or Mortal Man. But I agree with SGH, his fëa was tainted. The choices he made, would have been the same regardless of his experiences. He was who he was.
Yes, I agree... Fëanor was the reason behind the Noldor leaving Valinor and going to ME.

I see you are still hinding behind SGH skirts, pup! roflol! *puts sword away, as Maedhros is frightened enough*

[Maedhros]

The choices he made, would have been the same regardless of his experiences. He was who he was.

I disagree. If MÃ*riel had lived, then he would not had half brothers but full blood brothers. There would have been no rupture in the House of Finwë. There would have been no banishing of Fëanor to Formenos, Finwë would have still lived in Tirion and it would have been harder for Melkor to slay the Ñoldóran.
Fëanor would have never rebelled against his father. There Ñoldor would have been under the leadership of Finwë and with the Valar they would have brought Melkor down.
Unfortunately with this scenario, ME would have been probably more devastated by such a war than the War of Wrath in the Published Silmarillion in where almost all of Beleriand was destroyed.

I see you are still hinding behind SGH skirts, pup! roflol! *puts sword away, as Maedhros is frightened enough*

Hehe. I saw your new Title. Are you sure that you got the elf name right. I thought you were a Legolas fan too.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I disagree. If MÃ*riel had lived, then he would not had half brothers but full blood brothers. There would have been no rupture in the House of Finwë. There would have been no banishing of Fëanor to Formenos, Finwë would have still lived in Tirion and it would have been harder for Melkor to slay the Ñoldóran.

You know, I'm not so sure about that. Fëanor was against the remarriage of his father and subsequently not fond of his half-brothers. But since he was such an hot-tempered guy I wonder whether he could have liked any brother, full blood or no.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

But since he was such an hot-tempered guy I wonder whether he could have liked any brother, full blood or no.

Yes, very much so. Feanor had a 'bias' against any children of Finwe+Indis from the beggining, and he can even be excused for this, I mean as a young, hot tempered Elf he would've seen them as ususrping his fathers love, as the Shibboleth comments. I mean I think it is a element of Fingolfin being SONS of Finwe, Feanor never had a problem with Findis or Lalwende, though he didn't really have much problems with Finarfin at that. Feanor wasn't a evil Elf, before the Noldor began to become unsettled, and it is probable that he wouldv'e greeted any full blooded siblings with delight.

IMO, his life would've been more stable with a mother+father, and if Miriel had chosen to be re-embodied when aksed and if she was able to have children my view is that he would've loved/cared for them very much.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
Yes, very much so. Feanor had a 'bias' against any children of Finwe+Indis from the beggining
[snip]
IMO, his life would've been more stable with a mother+father, and if Miriel had chosen to be re-embodied when aksed and if she was able to have children my view is that he would've loved/cared for them very much.

Agree. Fëanor's problem was the (seemingly) rejection of his mother MÃ*riel. That's why he resented Indis and had a grudge against her sons even before they were born. His father giving the name Finwë also to his half-brothers didn't make things better, neither did the shibboleth thing. Nothing of this were aimed at him, but Fëanor read it as a personal attack on his mother and himself, being imo almost obsessed with the resentment of his father's second marriage. Fingolfin claiming the High Kingship of the Ñoldor was the last blow.

I don't know whether his fëa was tainted, but I'm convinced that MÃ*riel's was, and Finwë's too, I think.

Originally posted by Elvellon
And yet, how much are we the product of the environment and fortuitous choices we make? And Feanor was not only subject to the environment, but also to the deliberate, cunning malice of Morgoth, that knew very well how to manipulate Feanor (and Fingolfin).

Exactly. Now Fëanor's temper and overproudness made him a thankful victim for Morgoth's manipulation. But if Fanor was the leader of the rebellion, many others followed more than willingly, among them Fingolfin, Galadriel, and Finrod.

[Attalus]

I would like to point out that in Unfinished Tales, JRRT came to the final conclusion that Galadriel was unfriends forever with Feanor and took no part in his rebellion or the Kinslaying, but went to Middle-Earth in a ship she and Celevborn had made. Indeed, she seems rather obsessed with her half-brother and his deeds.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Indeed, she seems rather obsessed with her half-brother and his deeds

Galadriel did not have a Half-Brother-unless you are refering to Feanor who was her Half-Uncle.

[Falagar]

I would like to point out that in Unfinished Tales, JRRT came to the final conclusion that Galadriel was unfriends forever with Feanor and took no part in his rebellion or the Kinslaying, but went to Middle-Earth in a ship she and Celevborn had made. Indeed, she seems rather obsessed with her half-brother and his deeds.

Galadriel was Fëanáro's half-brother?!